... and here comes the next... (Playalong)

[MrWookie]

Frito,

Do the same calc HU w/ UTG.

[FUJItheFISH]

pf: call, raise, fold.

edit: oops i read that as fold and 5 calls.

im fine folding this hand.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough high card strength/showdown value here to warrant isolation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In particular,

[ QUOTE ]
UTG: Total fish. Runs by the stats of 76/4/0.5 and has a Wtsd of 70%+

[/ QUOTE ]

[fritos]

[ QUOTE ]
Frito,

Do the same calc HU w/ UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I did. You're losing (a bit). That's likely offset by the dead money in the pot, but I don't think it maxes out our EV:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

6,362,921,664 games 0.005 secs 1,272,584,332,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.470% 47.93% 01.54% 3049915324 97834022.00 { T9s }
Hand 1: 50.530% 48.99% 01.54% 3117338296 97834022.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 83s+, 73s+, 63s+, 52s+, 43s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J4o+, T6o+, 96o+, 85o+, 75o+, 65o }


(disclaimer: forgot to exclude the premiums for UTG in my first calcs, so I left them in here as well)

So that prolly means I'm breaking even or maybe even a very slight fav. (because of the premiums I included). Still, what the calcs show, I guess, is that limping is better as (a) I have a bigger edge to begin with (clearly profitable vs. barely or only-because-of-the-blind-money profitable) (b) I will have a clearly defined hand that's very easy to play postflop (often...)

So, anyway, I called...

[fretelöo]

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero ???

[Douglas Leslie]

Top pair, backdoor flush possibility and not too many players in the pot and two of them having just about any two cards- I would raise this. I think there is enough of an equity edge to raise now rather than wait until the turn.

[FUJItheFISH]

flop

raise raise raise.

[bravos1]

this play-along already sucks.. but please raise this flop!

[MrWookie]

Well, as long as we're breaking out the stove, I put SB on a huge range, UTG on a pretty wide calling range, and saw what happens to our equity if we assume BB has us dominated. Basically, the question is, "Is it worth trying to fold SB even if we're a dog in the hand?" The answer is a resounding no, since even if he's correct to call with 2 overcards in this spot, BB inherits virtually all of the equity of him folding.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

21,121,560 games 0.282 secs 74,899,148 games/sec

Board: 3d 4h Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.689% 15.27% 01.41% 3226172 298858.00 { Th9h }
Hand 1: 45.760% 44.16% 01.60% 9326240 338974.00 { JTo }
Hand 2: 18.738% 18.21% 00.53% 3846377 111286.00 { TT-22, AJs, A9s-A2s, KJs+, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kd8d, Kh8h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh7h, Kc6c, Kd6d, Kh6h, Kc5c, Kd5d, Kh5h, K4s-K3s, QJs, Qc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc8c, Qd8d, Qh8h, Q7s, Q4s-Q3s, J9s+, Jc8c, Jd8d, Jh8h, Jc7c, Jd7d, Jh7h, J4s-J3s, T6s+, 98s, 9c7c, 9d7d, 9h7h, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, AJo, A9o-A3o, KJo+, K4o-K3o, QJo, Q4o-Q3o, J9o+, J4o, T7o+, 98o, 75o+, 65o, 54o, 43o }
Hand 3: 18.813% 18.60% 00.21% 3928635 45018.00 { KQo }


---

2,104,893 games 0.032 secs 65,777,906 games/sec

Board: 3d 4h Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 17.958% 14.90% 03.06% 313667 64323.50 { Th9h }
Hand 1: 61.707% 58.40% 03.31% 1229234 69636.50 { JTo }
Hand 2: 20.335% 19.91% 00.42% 419097 8935.00 { TT-22, AJs, A9s-A2s, KJs+, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kd8d, Kh8h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh7h, Kc6c, Kd6d, Kh6h, Kc5c, Kd5d, Kh5h, K4s-K3s, QJs, Qc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc8c, Qd8d, Qh8h, Q7s, Q4s-Q3s, J9s+, Jc8c, Jd8d, Jh8h, Jc7c, Jd7d, Jh7h, J4s-J3s, T6s+, 98s, 9c7c, 9d7d, 9h7h, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, AJo, A9o-A3o, KJo+, K4o-K3o, QJo, Q4o-Q3o, J9o+, J4o, T7o+, 98o, 75o+, 65o, 54o, 43o }


---

909,374,260 games 12.610 secs 72,115,325 games/sec

Board: 3d 4h Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.264% 13.85% 02.41% 125968344 21930262.00 { Th9h }
Hand 1: 49.796% 47.05% 02.74% 427894831 24938598.00 { JTo }
Hand 2: 18.595% 18.07% 00.52% 164334495 4759540.17 { TT-22, AJs, A9s-A2s, KJs+, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kd8d, Kh8h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh7h, Kc6c, Kd6d, Kh6h, Kc5c, Kd5d, Kh5h, K4s-K3s, QJs, Qc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc8c, Qd8d, Qh8h, Q7s, Q4s-Q3s, J9s+, Jc8c, Jd8d, Jh8h, Jc7c, Jd7d, Jh7h, J4s-J3s, T6s+, 98s, 9c7c, 9d7d, 9h7h, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, AJo, A9o-A3o, KJo+, K4o-K3o, QJo, Q4o-Q3o, J9o+, J4o, T7o+, 98o, 75o+, 65o, 54o, 43o }
Hand 3: 15.346% 14.89% 00.46% 135405534 4142655.83 { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AJo-A2o, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }

If we want to advocate raising here, we need to put BB on a good number of hands we beat. I'm not saying that's bad, but I want to offer this as a pre-buttal to anyone who might say that we have to raise to force out SB regardless of BB's range.

[bung]

[ QUOTE ]
BB inherits virtually all of the equity of him folding

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand. Please explain this...