2/4 Razz against weird villain -- call the end w/ 98?

[Vex]

Ok, my reads on Villain are basically that he's a "low is high, high is low" kind of bettor. He'll slowplay a monster every time and will bet a busted draw on the end almost every time. He doesn't mix it up much if at all.

Two hands prior to this one, he checked down fourth and fifth with 963A showing against three people who were all showing two cards 10 or higher. He check/called sixth and seventh, winning with a 9.

I've seen him show down a T and a J and a Q. I can't decide if he's just clueless or just hyperaggressive against any sign of weakness.

As for me, I've read up a little on Razz in Super System 2 and played a bit on Full Tilt a bit before it came to Stars. I think I'm competent but not a great player.

Please, I'd appreciate comments on all streets.


PokerStars Game #: Razz Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/08/27 - 16:11:14 (ET)
Seat 2: Hero ($99 in chips)
Seat 3: Dude 1 ($78 in chips)
Seat 4: Villain ($100.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Dude 2 ($12.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Dude 3 ($120.50 in chips)

Hero: posts the ante $0.25
Dude 1: posts the ante $0.25
Villain: posts the ante $0.25
Dude 2: posts the ante $0.25
Dude 3: posts the ante $0.25

*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c]
Dealt to Dude 1 [Qh]
Dealt to Villain [3s]
Dealt to Dude 2 [2d]
Dealt to Dude 3 [Ac]
Dude 1: brings-in low $1
Villain: calls $1
Dude 2: folds
Dude 3: raises $1 to $2
Hero: calls $2
Dude 1: folds
Villain: calls $1

This is a pretty standard complete and calldown for this table. The table itself is fairly loose -- seen quite a bit of people going to 4th with a face-card showing if they have a couple really low cards underneath.

I think it's a clear easy call.

*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c] [As]
Dealt to Villain [3s] [4h]
Dealt to Dude 3 [Ac] [Jd]
GMB01 joins the table at seat #5
Villain: bets $2
Dude 3: calls $2
Hero: calls $2

Ok, I'm lovin' it. Question: do I want to let Villain continue to be the aggressor? Or is this a good place to raise since Dude 3 is coming along for the ride with his J?

*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c As] [9s]
Dealt to Villain [3s 4h] [2s]
Dealt to Dude 3 [Ac Jd] [Jc]
Villain: bets $4
Dude 3: folds
Hero: calls $4

Ok, I've got a 98. Remember that my read is that Villain likes to go passive with his monsters and aggressive with his draws and busted hands. So at this point in the hand I'm pretty solidly believing Villain either started off nice and got counterfeited, or is holding a high hole card or two and wants to look strong.

*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c As 9s] [Jh]
Dealt to Villain [3s 4h 2s] [Qs]
Hero: checks
Villain: bets $4
Hero: calls $4

Brick, brick. He's still firing away, and I don't believe for a second that he beats me.

*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c As 9s Jh] [Tc]
Hero: checks
Villain: bets $4

No help. Am I an idiot to call here, even when I'm practically certain he was betting a Q on sixth?





If you care about the results:

Hero: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain: shows [5c Qd 3s 4h 2s Qs 3d] (Lo: Q,5,4,3,2)
Hero: shows [5h 4c 8c As 9s Jh Tc] (Lo: 9,8,5,4,A)
Hero collected $37.25 from pot

So, I was right in that he didn't have two good cards in the hoel from the beginning, and I got lucky that his river was a brick.

[einbert]

Generally when you make a call getting 8-1 and win, you can be fairly sure that folding wouldn't have been correct.

[Bartholow]

Given your read it's probably worth raising 4th to punish the jack.

Definitely call river.

[mrmr]

[ QUOTE ]
He'll slowplay a monster every time

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Hero [5h 4c 8c]
Dealt to Dude 1 [Qh]
Dealt to Villain: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Dealt to Dude 2: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Dealt to Dude 3: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Dude 1: brings-in low $1
Villain: calls $1
Dude 2: folds
Dude 3: raises $1 to $2
Hero: calls $2
Dude 1: folds
Villain: calls $1

This is a pretty standard complete and calldown for this table. The table itself is fairly loose -- seen quite a bit of people going to 4th with a face-card showing if they have a couple really low cards underneath.

I think it's a clear easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a call and a raise, and three of the cards we need to make our hand are out. The guy who always slowplays monsters just called. And the deuce folded before the raise, so he probably has garbage hole cards, but there is the slim chance that he has another deuce down.

I'm not sure I would fold, but I obviously don't think it is clear and easy. Am I onto anything here, or do those of you more experienced in razz agree that this is a standard call?

[Bartholow]

I wouldn't say I'm very experienced, but I did initially think 3rd was closer than OP. That said probably a call.

[silvergoose]

Re: 4th, if you're raising, you're doing so both in the hopes that villain threebets and you get headsup, or not and you get money in with the best hand.

I raise here a lot just because getting headsup even with a hand like four to a six or seven is better than threehanded because of the dead money. And if the jack doesn't go away, well, you've got well over 33% equity in this pot, so the money he puts in is free money for you.

Just my two cents.

[Tha Stunna]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but is there razz somewhere in ss2? I only remember it in ss1, and that was bare bones... I learned razz mainly by learning stud 8.

Oddly enough, you might have been a slight dog on 5th street. I think that if you were willing to call on 5th then you have to call down even on the river if he doesn't improve on 6th.. the odds of someone betting a bust are too big. And yeah, I agree that one successful call means that it would be the right thing to do... but change your mind if you lose the next ten maybe.