I'm Dumbfounded - Page 3

Jasper109 · #21 10-11-2006, 02:38 PM

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I dont like dawkins - probably for the reasons you do. He starts with a discussion on science, then smoothly moves into decidedly unscientific conclusions.

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Give me an example of a conclusion that he reaches that has no scientific basis.

Jasper109 · #22 10-11-2006, 02:45 PM

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It took you 40 years to read two books?

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Like I said, I guess I'm an extremely slow learner. I think I spent 40 years in the same semi-elusional state that a lot of people do. Over one summer I read probably close to a dozen books related to what we are discussing, actually RATIONALLY thought about it, and it just suddenly hit me.

It's like my sister tells me. She's too busy working, raising a family, etc. to bother thinking about stuff like this. She's an atheist, but just basically ignores the whole bigger picture issue.

I used to be much the same (maybe more of agnostic), but I just think it's bizarre. It would be like having no opinion on weather the easter bunny exists. I think most people WOULD have an opinion on this.

Jasper109 · #23 10-11-2006, 02:52 PM

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Why do you want to spew when you see it? Not because it offends your 'rational' sensibilities, but because everything exists in relation to God, and your 'atheism' can only be hatred of God, which you want everyone else to share.

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I can't really have a hatred for something that doesn't exist.

Brings to mind the Amish school killer. He wrote that he "hated god" because god allowed his infant daughter to die.

Don't you think that is a sad commentary on "believers" when they either "thank" or "hate" god for good and bad things that happen in their lives?

Albert Pujols appears to be "thanking" god for the fact that he hit a homerun or the fact that his team won a game. What about the believers on the other team that just lost the game. Does god really want Albert to be more successful than other players, or is he such a great player because of random genetics and hard work?

AthenianStranger · #24 10-11-2006, 03:31 PM

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Why do you want to spew when you see it? Not because it offends your 'rational' sensibilities, but because everything exists in relation to God, and your 'atheism' can only be hatred of God, which you want everyone else to share.

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I can't really have a hatred for something that doesn't exist.

Brings to mind the Amish school killer. He wrote that he "hated god" because god allowed his infant daughter to die.

Don't you think that is a sad commentary on "believers" when they either "thank" or "hate" god for good and bad things that happen in their lives?

Albert Pujols appears to be "thanking" god for the fact that he hit a homerun or the fact that his team won a game. What about the believers on the other team that just lost the game. Does god really want Albert to be more successful than other players, or is he such a great player because of random genetics and hard work?

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I will venture to say what should be obvious-- just because you SAY that God doesn't exist, doesn't mean that He doesn't. You are still saying something about God-- look how silly you look, talking about something that doesn't exist. And don't pull that Easter bunny crap, because that's childish. Nobody says that the Easter bunny created the universe or that our existence is predicated upon him. You would like to say that the belief in God is childish, but your understanding of belief is what is infantile, immature and undeveloped. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know what is going on.

Maybe next you want to ask how God can answer so many prayers at once? Wouldn't he get confused? Oh wait, you already asked that question.

vhawk01 · #25 10-11-2006, 03:47 PM

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You have faith yourself - you have the unwavering faith that God does not exist. This is a religion in itself, it is what you stand on, it is your anchor.

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Prove it. I'm a little tired of people continuing to assert this like its some commonly accepted fact. You are just making things up about a group of people who needn't have anything in common with each other and who certainly haven't professed a set of codes or beliefs that they expect to be held to. Thats the subtle difference between 'Christian-bashing' and 'atheist-bashing.'

Zygote · #26 10-11-2006, 04:07 PM

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What I don't get is if god is helping Albert win, does that mean god wants the opposing team to lose.

Doesn't god have better things to do like causing hurricanes in New Orleans because too many people are non-believers or deciding who will win the world cup of soccer?

Someone, please, please, pretty please, explain to me how people can be so stupid.

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It's not such an inconceivable leap if you already believe in non-physical things. I believe numbers are real, non-physical objects and it's a mystery to me how physical beings can know about them. I believe that a purely physical description of the universe inevitably leaves out the mind (at least the subjective component of it) and it is also a mystery to me how this non-physical consciousness arises from the physical. I believe that the laws of logic are real, non-physical things which would exist even if the universe didnt.

I also happen to believe that a personal god is the best explanation for personal experiences I have had. I dont think you can call me stupid. Although, if I am wrong about my experiences you could call me gullible, weak-willed or claim I am poor at interpreting my experiences perhaps.

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Hi Bunny,

With regards to your point that a "a purely physical description of the universe inevitably leaves out the mind",
I really think this book will help at least give you a different understanding of how and why your brain works the way it does. The question of mind body and soul is addressed within this framework and i think you'd find the explanations interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0...TF8&s=books

Regarding your personal experiences, that obviously can't be very convincing to someone without those experiences. I'd be interested if your could share your personal experiences since we may be able to learn a lot more about god through them and can perhaps interpret why god would invoke those specific experiences on these select people for some many specific reasons.

You must realize that the given information tells the rational person that the phenomenon is more likely explained by the known irrational behaviour of human beings versus the unknown irrational behaviour of aliens/gods/undetectable energy forces/etc., as the great Richard Feynman would've put it.

AthenianStranger · #27 10-11-2006, 04:11 PM

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You have faith yourself - you have the unwavering faith that God does not exist. This is a religion in itself, it is what you stand on, it is your anchor.

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Prove it. I'm a little tired of people continuing to assert this like its some commonly accepted fact. You are just making things up about a group of people who needn't have anything in common with each other and who certainly haven't professed a set of codes or beliefs that they expect to be held to. Thats the subtle difference between 'Christian-bashing' and 'atheist-bashing.'

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That's only because you're cowards, not because you actaully don't believe in something (I would characterize that religion as secularism, not atheism, but that's another matter).

kurto · #28 10-11-2006, 04:12 PM

I actually think you're being a little hard on him. Yes, his tone is certainly belligerent towards believers... but I have trouble scolding atheists (and I am one... so no secrets here) for adamantly not-believing in something for which there is no proof, plenty of contrary evidence and appears for all intents and purposes to have been made up by man.

To believe in God requires blindly accepting what is ascribed to him (all his omnipotence) by people who have no evidence other then they were told the same thing and have chosen to believe it.

Jasper109 · #29 10-11-2006, 04:31 PM

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And don't pull that Easter bunny crap, because that's childish. Nobody says that the Easter bunny created the universe or that our existence is predicated upon him.

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So what? Just because one made up supposed entity is theoretically more important in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean that said entity is more likely to actually exist.

vhawk01 · #30 10-11-2006, 04:31 PM

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You have faith yourself - you have the unwavering faith that God does not exist. This is a religion in itself, it is what you stand on, it is your anchor.

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Prove it. I'm a little tired of people continuing to assert this like its some commonly accepted fact. You are just making things up about a group of people who needn't have anything in common with each other and who certainly haven't professed a set of codes or beliefs that they expect to be held to. Thats the subtle difference between 'Christian-bashing' and 'atheist-bashing.'

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That's only because you're cowards, not because you actaully don't believe in something (I would characterize that religion as secularism, not atheism, but that's another matter).

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We've been over this, I think. The so-called 'atheists' that you like to lampoon don't really exist. Or if they do, they do so in some small percentage of people who haven't really thought about the issue very much. We are all technically agnostics. We do not desperately and feverishly believe in the Truth of Godlessness. We just don't think there is a god. We're pretty sure of it, not 100%. Get it?