QQ 2nd pair on the flop

HermannTL · #1 10-30-2007, 08:25 PM

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero...

Early in a session on a very fishy table, no detailed reads. UTG+1 is a 52/9.6/2.2 who has played some silly hands. MP2 is 52/0/0.4. MP3 concerns me a bit at 16/0/0.5. BB is 39/5.6.

I think I should raise to find out where I stand...and the BB and the middle players aren't acting like they have a King.

Aaron W. · #2 10-30-2007, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I should raise to find out where I stand

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

tiltaholic · #3 10-30-2007, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero...

Early in a session on a very fishy table, no detailed reads. UTG+1 is a 52/9.6/2.2 who has played some silly hands. MP2 is 52/0/0.4. MP3 concerns me a bit at 16/0/0.5. BB is 39/5.6.

I think I should raise to find out where I stand...and the BB and the middle players aren't acting like they have a King.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising could be good, but only if UTG+1 does weird things, like bet into pf raisers with bad cards for fun.

BadBigBabar · #4 10-30-2007, 08:37 PM

i fold right away on the flop. someone has a king or better always here.

kbdunn · #5 10-30-2007, 08:39 PM

Nearly closing the action with a BDSD and a decently coordinated board, I think its close between folding and calling.

neurotiq · #6 10-30-2007, 09:12 PM

I'd fold this guy. It looked good preflop; it doesn't look good any more. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Reaction · #7 10-31-2007, 12:27 PM

The BDSD is worth about 0 outs. It has only one redeeming quality that may bump it up to 0.25 outs.

Blzdwrath · #8 10-31-2007, 12:49 PM

Easy fold. You are up against 3 possible four opponents, chances are atleast on of them has a king, i'd put you at 2.5 outs (BDSD discounted). Not to mention people like to play things out of the BB like Kxs, so there is a chance you could even get raised by the BB who still has yet to act.

I know it sucks to hit unfavorable flops with your premium hands, but one thing people have a hard time understanding is that just b/c you hit a premium hand PF it does not entitle you to the pot, it just gives you a better chance of winning it.

Point Blank · #9 10-30-2007, 09:22 PM

if I had the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or board wasn't two flushed I would consider calling ...

this is an easy fold ...

[ QUOTE ]
I think I should raise to find out where I stand

[/ QUOTE ]
this will have people yelling at you for sure ... read some other posts please

HermannTL · #10 10-31-2007, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this will have people yelling at you for sure ... read some other posts please

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Well...let's just say that I've read a lot of other posts but with 15 pages of topics in the last two weeks there are a LOT of other posts to read. I'm here to learn and I've gotten some good advice, including your point about the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the link a couple of posts farther down.

Speaking of that link to Ed's article, in the original thread another poster said the following:

"You should rarely be calling down with position. You need to use your position to find out where you are and to charge potential draws and to take free showdowns.

Example: You have QQ on the button and raise one early limper. The big blind, a seemingly sane player, calls. Flop is K T 8 with 2 spades. You bet and are checkraised by the big blind and the limper folds. Calling that and the turn and river is bad. The standard play is to pop him on the turn and usually take the free showdown. He could easily have a hand like AT or a multitude of draws that you need to charge him for and obviously you can release to further aggression. Why else is position so "powerful" as quoted by the pundits? "

My impression is that the biggest difference between this example and my case is that the example is HU and the riff-raff have already been cleaned out. There's only one left to have a King. Now part of my what I meant by the notorious "see where I stand" is to see who does not fold. This doesn't have the impact of a turn raise, and since most of them are already in for one bet there may be none who fold, but anyone else without a King may chuck the hand now. Maybe I should chuck it too, but I see some of you don't agree with that.