Why should we not be playing suited connectors oop?

[mr_suspekt]

I've been wondering about something concerning preflop play. Brian Townsend argues that you should never cold call with suited connectors oop preflop but that it's ok with small PPs. Why is this?

Since I have not been able to figure out why it's supposed to be -EV to do this I still cold call from the blinds with these type of hands.

The line I usually take is to check raise and play for stacks (100bb) everytime I flop a decent draw and sometimes even check raise if it's heads up and the flop comes something like A72r since it's not very likely that my opponent has hit that Ace (especially if he frequently raise from CO or button).

My pokertracker position stats indicates that I make a small profit by playing like this from the blinds, but I trust that Brian knows what he talks about and I want to know what you guys think about this!

Thank you!

[Chaos_ult]

With pocket pairs you have some immediate showdown value.

[Symbolic]

When you play suited connector's you are much more likely to flop a draw than a made hand, while with pp's you generally either hit a set or miss completely. It is hard to play a draw OOP against a decent aggro opponent, but this is not such a problem if you flop a set since you are very strong already.

[SilentNoise]

i dont see why it wouldn't be the other way around. generally when you call a co/btn raise with a pocket pair, its hard to win the pot unimproved oop. and most of the time you dont have implied odds vs a lp raiser anyway.

with suited connectors on the other hand, they have better "top pair value" than pocket pairs, and while they might not have "immediate showdown value"(why this even matters i dont know since the preflop raiser is nearly always cbetting anyway) ... suited connectors are more likely to flop weak draws like overs+gs which you can c/r bluff and whatever. and atleast when you checkraise bluff some low flops with TJ or whatever, you probably have more equity if called than if you were to c/r bluff with a small pair?

more explanations on why calling with pairs is better than calling with suited connectors against laggy late position raisers please...its one of the many things i clearly dont understand

[BigPoppa]

Neither is profitable aganist Laggy LP raisers (one of the reasons being a Laggy LP raiser is itself profitable), especially ones who will fire multiple barrels (making it harder to get to showdown with a marginal hand). Both can be profitable against tighter raisers and in multiway pots.


I will normally only cold call OOP with SC if the pot is multiway.

[ChoicestHops]

Suited Connectors, Implied Odds, and You

goofyballer wrote a really good post awhile back. But the main gist of that thread is you will only flop a 12 out+ combo draw 1 in 14 times. You will flop a set 1 in 7, and IIRC you want about 10-1 odds for the pocket pair.

[5thStreetHog]

I agree with Poppa,no one is going to make a living playing eithor small pairs or small SC`s out of position on a regular basis.Its about picking your spots in multiway pots,vs deep stacked opponents,or other spots that will allow you to get the most out of your hand when you spike right?Just out of curiosity,how ofton do you guys give up to the button raiser in these situations post flop vs how ofton do you check raise a seemingly good board assuming you dont flop a hand with SC`s or a small pocket pair?I tend to feel more comfortable doing this with a pocket pair although if called we might as well have air most of the time so im not sure it makes much of a difference.With more players seemingly willing to bet all kinds of garbage on the cutoff and more so the button,its a part of my game i usually struggle to get a grasp on.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
Suited Connectors, Implied Odds, and You

goofyballer wrote a really good post awhile back. But the main gist of that thread is you will only flop a 12 out+ combo draw 1 in 14 times. You will flop a set 1 in 7, and IIRC you want about 10-1 odds for the pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks for linking that Hops.I had never read it,great thread.

[mr_suspekt]

Apart from the pure mathematical viewpoint there are other factors that I think are important to mention when it comes to deciding what hands to play PF. At these stakes I guess that the player-pool might be too big for this to be relevant but when I said that I would play for stacks almost every time I flop at least an 8-outer is because I want to get paid off when I actually do hit a set. I mean if I 4bet AI with a draw on the flop or 2nd barrel my c/r on turn three things can happen: 1 my opponent folds, 2 my opponent calls and I draw out at least 1 in 3 times, 3 my opponent calls and wins the the pot. 1 and 2 are of course what we want to happen but even the third option isn't all that bad since we will be much more likely to get the money in with 66 on a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]flop against TPTK because we would take the exact same line with 45, 58, 89, and any two [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s.

And of course this works the other way around as well with opponents folding TPTK when we have an OESD because he knows that we would play a set the same way. (I suppose that I would always call with my TPTK against someone like me since there are more hand combinations that are draws than there is that are made hands plus that there is already some money invested in the pot).

Anyways, if we only cold called with small PP's and never SC from the blinds and then check/raised the flop who would ever pay us off? I might be incorrect here and I'd like to hear your views on this!

[casaubon]

SCs seem fine with good relative position. I generally fold even if it goes limp-limp-buttonraise. You just need to steal with them way more often than pairs,and semibluffing in bad position blows unless stacks are right for a bet-3bet all-in