LC - CT post - Playing good draws in multiway pots

Fantam · #1 10-25-2007, 01:07 PM

A very good poster recently reprimanded me for automatically betting reasonable draws OOP in family pots.
This encouraged me to reconsider my play in that situation and gave me the idea for the subject of my Carpal Tunnel post:

================================================== ==========

Using Your Position to Maximise Value with Good Flop Draws in Multiway Pots

Sometimes you will flop a flush or OESD and have several opponents. You might have 8 or more outs to possibly improve to the best hand, and know that you will complete your draw about 1/3rd of the time by the river.
As long as at least 3 of your opponents call a flop bet, you will have an equity edge as you will be contributing a smaller %age of the total bets to the pot than your %age chance of winning.
So, should you always bet the flop when you have > 2 opponents and a draw, which has 8+ outs ?

I think that the answer depends upon several factors, which would include: pot size, your number of opponents, their playing tendencies, the strength of your draw and your position.
My first 3 hand examples for consideration are theoretical and the final hand example is one that I recently played.

1.) Medium flush draw from late position in an unraised pot

Suppose that 3 loose players limp pf, you also limp with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button, a passive player in the SB completes and the BB checks. The flop then comes J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] giving you a FD, the SB bets and the 3 limpers call. The pot is now 10sb.
You should raise because it is likely that your opponents will all call for an additional bet and you have an equity edge. It is possible that the SB might 3-bet, but as he did not raise pf and is a passive player, there is probably a reasonable chance that he will just call.
Your flop raise also appears to be better than calling, because your advantageous late positon may allow your raise to "buy you a free card". If you do not make your flush on the turn, and are checked to by all of your opponents, you will then have the option of checking behind at no further cost to see if you complete your flush on the river.

2.) Medium flush draw from early position in a raised pot

Suppose that an aggressive player raised pf in EP, 3 loose players cold-called, you completed in the BB with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving you a FD in an 10.5sb pot.
If you bet the flop the pf raiser might raise and your other 3 opponents might fold. Now, you would still have to call the flop raise and turn in the hope of improving, because the pot was too big to fold, but you would no longer have an equity edge.
However, if you checked the flop, the pf raiser bet and your other 3 opponents all called, you could raise and possibly trap the whole field for an extra bet.
So, here checking the flop and using your position relative to the pf raiser, to hopefully raise his anticipated flop c-bet, should be better than betting the flop yourself.

3.) Strong flush draw from early position after you raised preflop

Suppose that 4 loose players limp pf, you raise in the SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], the BB folds and the limpers all call. Now the flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], giving you the nut FD in an 11sb pot.
This time, you should prefer to bet as opposed to check the flop. As you raised pf, by continuing your aggression on the flop with a bet, there is a chance that one or more of your opponents will fold. This should increase your chances of winning the hand by pairing either your A or K, if your flop raise caused a hand like A8, A7, K8 or K7 to fold.
However, if 3 or all of your opponents called, your flop bet would still be +EV as you would retain your equity edge for completing your FD.

4.) Medium flush draw plus additional outs from early position in an unraised pot

3 players limped pf and I completed in the SB with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB checked and the flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving me a FD and one card OESD in a small 5sb pot.
With 3 broadway cards showing, I considered that this flop was likely to get some action from my opponents. Any Ax or 9x hand would have a gut-shot draw. Any Kx, Qx or Tx hand would have made a pair and another Jx hand would have made an OESD. There was also the very real possibility that someone might have made a 2 pair hand with KQ, KT or QT. So, I very much doubted whether this flop would be checked through, if I did not bet.
However, as no one had raised pf, I had no indication as to which of my opponents might either bet this flop if checked to or alternatively raise a flop bet in front of them.
I considered that if I bet this flop with my strong draw and then the player on my immediate left raised, that this may have resulted in the rest of my opponents folding. Then my hand would have lost some value as it would no longer have had an equity edge.
Alternatively, I reasoned that if I checked the flop, that would allow me to see how my opponents acted behind me. That would then hopefully enable me to make a better decision as to whether to call or raise a subsequent flop bet, when it next became my turn to act.
Now, if the player on my immediate left bet the flop and all of my other opponents called, I would be able to exploit my good position relative to the flop better and raise, trapping the rest of the field for an extra bet.
On the other hand, if the flop was checked round to the last player behind me, whom then bet, I would be able to call to encourage overcalls from the rest of my opponents, and hopefully retain my equity edge.
So, I checked the flop, as this appeared to be the best way for me to maximise the value of my strong draw.

Conclusion

As you can see from the above hand examples, whether you should check, bet, call or raise on the flop when you have a good draw, can vary according to the circumstances of the particular hand.
So, the next time that you have a flop draw with a lot of outs in a multiway pot, it may be worth considering all of your options before acting, as opposed to automatically betting simply because you know that you have an equity edge.

-Fantam
================================================== ==========

I hope that my post will be useful for some of this forum's members if they are not already familiar with all of the concepts, which I have mentioned, and that it may generate some interesting discussions.

Finally, I would like to show what happened in the hand that I played after I checked the flop, because I think that how to play the turn then also became an interesting decision.

My opponents stats were as follows: MP2 - 77/5.7/1.1 (35 hands), MP3 - 48/0/0 (35 hands), CO - 23/5.8/1.5 (206 hands), BB - 24/2.8/1.5 (70 hands).

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero...?

How do you think that I should now have played the turn ?

Dankenstein · #2 10-25-2007, 01:53 PM

Excellent post fantam. I would C/C the turn and see if I can get the free card to complete the draw. Seeing as how I'm a begining player I am quite interested to see what others would do here.

36CampusAve · #3 10-25-2007, 01:57 PM

Great post fantam. It was definitely useful to me.

I also c/c the turn and c/f the river UI.

Sushiglutton · #4 10-25-2007, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose that an aggressive player raised pf in EP, 3 loose players cold-called, you completed in the BB with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving you a FD in an 10.5sb pot.
If you bet the flop the pf raiser might raise and your other 3 opponents might fold. Now, you would still have to call the flop raise and turn in the hope of improving, because the pot was too big to fold, but you would no longer have an equity edge.
However, if you checked the flop, the pf raiser bet and your other 3 opponents all called, you could raise and possibly trap the whole field for an extra bet.
So, here checking the flop and using your position relative to the pf raiser, to hopefully raise his anticipated flop c-bet, should be better than betting the flop yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good post Fantam!!!

In the spot described above I have a question. Suppose we are sucessful in trapping the entire field, or at least a couple of them. If the turn is blank we will be forced to check. Now even the most stupid player ever will know excactly what type of hand we hold.
This must hurt our implied odds? Is this a factor to consider?

LateFlag · #5 10-25-2007, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero...?

How do you think that I should now have played the turn ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the turn for value.

(Of course, we know Hero bet the turn because his name's already in red, but it's the right move with 15 outs and several players who we know are calling).

tyler_cracker · #6 10-25-2007, 02:10 PM

fantam,

nice post!

in your 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] example, you also have a couple of backdoor draws. this improves your equity and makes a value raise even more attractive.

in the posted hand, you must check the turn. you have no fold equity, and J-high is not winning this pot. this has the effect of turning your hand face-up, which you might want to mention as another negative effect of making a value raise from early position.

Xylocain · #7 10-25-2007, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A very good poster recently reprimanded me for automatically betting reasonable draws OOP in family pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I'm guilty as charged. This is a great post. (WTF@LC?)

I havent read it in detail yet, but I think you also need to discuss the impact on implied odds when you take or keep the lead in a hand OOP. IMO the deception from leading is very beneficial because most people over-call and reraise lighter when you take the lead on the flop or keep the lead in a hand. This makes up for some (a lot?) of the equity we lose the times we get raised to our immediate left when we bet OOP. The most likely bettor is a LP anyway. Its also better for meta game to bet 2 streets and fold than to call 2 streets and fold.

:g:
I think I would check/call the turn in the hand but its really close. If flop bettor is passive I prefer betting since this turn is getting checked trough -- never.

my2

bozlax · #8 10-25-2007, 02:46 PM

Theory stuff: tl;dr version: it depends. Also, if you're going to label a CT post as "LC", is it really a CT post?

The real hand: checking that flop is criminal. Bet/3-bet. As played, bet the turn. Actually, regardless of how you played the flop, bet the turn as long as 2-3 players are there with you.

Fantam · #9 10-25-2007, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose that an aggressive player raised pf in EP, 3 loose players cold-called, you completed in the BB with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving you a FD in an 10.5sb pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In the spot described above I have a question. Suppose we are sucessful in trapping the entire field, or at least a couple of them. If the turn is blank we will be forced to check. Now even the most stupid player ever will know excactly what type of hand we hold.
This must hurt our implied odds? Is this a factor to consider?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you are correct our hand would become more readable after we checked a blank turn.

However, I think that we would just have to accept that, as
our flop raise would have been for value when we had an equity edge.

I would also imagine that if we only called the pf raiser's flop c-bet, but then either led into or check/raised him on the turn after making our flush, that our hand may again have become readable.

So, I am not sure whether we could protect any implied odds that we may have had for completing our draw by not raising the flop.

Fantam · #10 10-25-2007, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Theory stuff: tl;dr version: it depends. Also, if you're going to label a CT post as "LC", is it really a CT post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I initially thought that LC meant long content as opposed to low content, but it is too late for me to amend the thread title.
I am also not sure what tl;dr means although I have seen it used before on the forum.