back to back AQ hands -- Stars $50/50k

benneh · #1 10-05-2007, 04:02 PM

line check on the first. we obviously can't raise and folding allows too many Ax hands to beat us out of a pot. anyone find a fold anyway? villain is unknown.

hand 2 i also have no reads on either villain, but i think i should find a fold here, no? I feel like the river is an obvious fold that I should have pulled the trigger on. anyone muckin the turn though? that's when it started to feel like i was beat, but i'm not sure if that's just too weak.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t5185)
MP2 (t5420)
MP3 (t1555)
CO (t5055)
Button (t1875)
SB (t2770)
BB (t3370)
UTG (t3880)
UTG+1 (t4205)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 4 folds, SB calls t125, 1 fold.

Flop: (t350) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t150, SB calls t150.

Turn: (t650) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t250, SB calls t250.

River: (t1150) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t500, Hero calls t500.

Final Pot: t2150

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t4135)
UTG+1 (t5220)
MP1 (t1830)
MP2 (t5055)
MP3 (t1875)
CO (t3870)
Button (t3295)
SB (t3830)
BB (t4205)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, MP2 calls t150, 1 fold, CO calls t150, 3 folds.

Flop: (t525) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t200, MP2 calls t200, CO calls t200.

Turn: (t1125) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t600, CO folds, Hero calls t600.

River: (t2325) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t1500, Hero calls t1500.

Final Pot: t5325

Dunkman · #2 10-05-2007, 04:18 PM

Bet sizes in the first hand are not good. Bet more on flop, more on turn, and I think we have to call the river for that price on the off chance he's betting a busted flush draw.

In hand 2, again bet more on the flop, the c/c on the turn is fine, and I'd seriously consider letting it go on the river, looks like a set/QJ since there aren't really any good draws on the flop, and wouldn't villain take the free card with 87? I guess maybe not if they thought your flop bet was just a cbet...I mean I could see them knowing the 7 isn't good and bet the river anyway, but I'm not sure that happens often enough to make the river a call, and I can't imagine them betting this river with KQ/QT type of hand.

willperkins · #3 10-05-2007, 04:20 PM

Hand 1. Betting looks fine to me. I would call the river bet. He will probably show AJ-Ax, maybe AQ. He could also show JJ-99 or maybe a monster 88.

Hand 2. Preflop and flop bet are fine. If I am going to call the turn bet anyway, I go ahead and lead the turn. If one of them raises me, I have a tough decision to make (do I want to get a significant amount of chips involved this early in the tourney with TPTK?)

jjyykk · #4 10-05-2007, 04:22 PM

Hand 1: I think the bet size on the flop and turn are suboptimal. The flop bet should be closer to pot size to see what he's calling with; you don't want naked diamond draws and others to hit a gutter on that disgusting turn.

IMO you can either check behind on the turn or commit to it with a strong bet in the 400+ range. Betting to protect your hand against fluke AJish hands that might hit an insider is great, but if a nasty Q or J hits the river, you have an easy fold anyways.

The river bet looks like a blocker, so I think a call is fine. All in all I think the hand was decently played, but definitely bet more on the flop. Flop pot, check turn, and calling nonthreatening rivers looks good, or flop pot, 1/2 turn, and you'll know you're beat if he leads.

Again with the second hand, the flop bet is way too low especially OOP. If you're going to go for pot control on the turn, you have to bet higher on the flop (or you'll be misjudged as weak imo). Here I doubt anybody can really put you on TPTK with your 1/3rd pot/check line, so there's a good case for calling. But bet more on flop to avoid these tough decisions imo. And there's very few hands other than an aggressive QK you can beat on the river; based on reads, certain players would opt to check down QK.

edit: wow Dunkman beat me into the suggestion pot with a post that had my outdated advice drawing dead.

erc007 · #5 10-05-2007, 04:27 PM

I would check the turn in hand#1, for pot control + the T gives you a gutshot and also takes away one more A that you're beating. I'm calling most rivers.

Hand#2 u should bet more on the flop (350-375.) Not defining your hand makes it a lot tougher to narrow villain's range here. He could be value-betting KQ, or he could be taking u to value-town with QJ/set. If u rep TP on the flop, c/c the turn, i think u can easily fold this river.

BarryLyndon · #6 10-05-2007, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would check the turn in hand#1, for pot control + the T gives you a gutshot and also takes away one more A that you're beating. I'm calling most rivers.

Hand#2 u should bet more on the flop (350-375.) Not defining your hand makes it a lot tougher to narrow villain's range here. He could be value-betting KQ, or he could be taking u to value-town with QJ/set. If u rep TP on the flop, c/c the turn, i think u can easily fold this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything he said. However, Benneh, since you are a very good poster, I am wondering why your flop bets are so small. Reasoning?

Barry

benneh · #7 10-05-2007, 04:52 PM

in hand 1, i'm not sure what i was thinking. i usually bet more on those kind of drawy flops, i must have just had a brainfart.

in hand 2, i sometimes bet that small on relatively dry boards to get some more value. out of worse hands that can't call huge bets. basically, i didn't see much reason/need to protect my hand here, and didn't want to price out hands that can't call big bets. probably a lapse on my part, since i don't do this too often. i may have just been on lifetilt or something.

edit:

oh, iforgot hand 2 was multiway on the flop and turn. yea, that was another brainfart i guess. i don't usually play stupid with multiway hands with TPTK. i still don't think the small bets in this hand are bad though.it gives some pricy odds for straight draws, but i'm not too concerned about them.

donquay · #8 10-05-2007, 05:28 PM

I agree with erc...I check the turn in hand 1 (I'd probably make the flop bet 250-275..I don't hate the "drawyness" of the flop because it's HU and we're in position

2nd hand I'd make flop bet around 400 (since we're oop against 2 players)

erc007 · #9 10-05-2007, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
in hand 2, i sometimes bet that small on relatively dry boards to get some more value. out of worse hands that can't call huge bets. basically, i didn't see much reason/need to protect my hand here, and didn't want to price out hands that can't call big bets.
edit:

oh, iforgot hand 2 was multiway on the flop and turn. yea, that was another brainfart i guess. i don't usually play stupid with multiway hands with TPTK. i still don't think the small bets in this hand are bad though.it gives some pricy odds for straight draws, but i'm not too concerned about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your thinking here, and i don't disagree with your logic. My point is that sometimes it works to your advantage to define your hand, or define the strength of your hand on the flop. Since c-bets are the norm now, your avg tourney player will associate/interpret any 1/2 pot c-bet as a miss. This can work for u, when u are ahead, but it can also make it a lot more difficult for u to tell when u are behind (see my 1st post about narrowing villain's range.) I don't think making a weak flop lead, then c/c'ing down with TP/TK will be the (most EV+) line that gets u the most value when u are ahead/loses the least for u when u are beat.

benneh · #10 10-05-2007, 11:34 PM

edit n/m

thanks for input all

fwiw, i think the turn in hand 2 is close to a fold, and the river is an easy one. leading the turn here seems a bit spewwy, because we are behind so many ranges besides complete air, and with 2 callers I don't think we can put both of them on bad hands, even though we lead out the flop very weak. one of them has to be serious/not drawing.

as for hand 1, I still think i played this hand fine, even if my bets were a bit on the small side. folding here in any spot is too much of a mistake that we can't afford to make.