30/60 turn spot

Schneids · #1 11-23-2007, 07:48 AM

The reason people don't (or rather, shouldn't) fold pairs on this board on the turn is because most PF raisers c-bet QJo and other similar no-showdown type hands on the turn and check their showdownable hands. A large number of poker players are aware of this fact, so when the board is as such and we've got a chance to take a free 12+ out draw, I think it's better to generally check because our fold equity is not too high and the pot is small so letting a free 4-6 out draw hit isn't too harmful.

Make the board a similar straightish type board, but with bigger cards, and we still have just some kind of ace high flush draw, and I think there's a better case to be made for betting (because then people begin to lay down bottom pair to turn bets because the board makes it more likely to have hit the PFRs hand range).

Nate. · #2 11-23-2007, 12:46 PM

Schneids--

Thanks for posting that. You're Schneids and I'm not, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've played in tons of live mid-limit games against tons of live mid-limit opponents, and I'm pretty sure that most of them fold some pairs in this spot. Even as a theoretical matter, it's not at all obvious to me that if two perfect computers were playing this hand, the BB wouldn't fold any pairs. (Not that you were quite implying this; I'm just saying that both practically and conceptually I think you get some folds.)

--Nate

DeathDonkey · #3 11-23-2007, 04:25 PM

Put me in the Pokerbob camp if we are just taking a pole now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Entity · #4 11-23-2007, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Put me in the Pokerbob camp if we are just taking a pole now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably doesn't mean much to those who are arguing this but I'm with you guys.

Rob

Nate. · #5 11-23-2007, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put me in the Pokerbob camp if we are just taking a pole now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably doesn't mean much to those who are arguing this but I'm with you guys.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob--

No, thanks for chiming in.

--Nate

private joker · #6 11-24-2007, 03:55 AM

This thread is funny -- tonight during my session I 3-bet a PFR with AsTs and the flop was Qxx with one spade. He check-called. The turn was another spade, he checked, I decided to try something different and check behind thanks to this thread. River was an A. He checked, I value bet, he called with AKo. (He would have folded to a turn bet FWIW).

BTW I'm not being results-oriented here, I'm just telling a story to highlight that 2+2 threads directly impact my play of a hand these days. For better and worse.

PokerBob · #7 11-24-2007, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is funny -- tonight during my session I 3-bet a PFR with AsTs and the flop was Qxx with one spade. He check-called. The turn was another spade, he checked, I decided to try something different and check behind thanks to this thread. River was an A. He checked, I value bet, he called with AKo. (He would have folded to a turn bet FWIW).

BTW I'm not being results-oriented here, I'm just telling a story to highlight that 2+2 threads directly impact my play of a hand these days. For better and worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

i played this one earlier tonight.....

Seat 1: mj6times (875.67 in chips)
Seat 2: Pope1 (773.05 in chips)
Seat 7: PokerBob (1651.70 in chips)
Seat 8: Cogitus (1408.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Ethan2691 (660.00 in chips)
Ethan2691: posts small blind $10
mj6times: posts big blind $20
Dealt to PokerBob[ Ad 6d ]
Pope1: folds
PokerBob: raises to $40
Cogitus: folds
Ethan2691: folds
mj6times: calls
*** FLOP *** [ 5c 5d 9d ]
mj6times: checks
PokerBob: bets $20
mj6times: calls
*** TURN *** [ 8c ]
mj6times: checks
PokerBob: checks
*** RIVER *** [ 3s ]
mj6times: bets $40
PokerBob: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mj6times: shows [ Kd Jh ] (Pair of Fives )
PokerBob: shows [ Ad 6d ] (Pair of Fives )
PokerBob wins $208 with Pair of Fives with Ace kicker

Joe Tall · #8 11-23-2007, 05:29 PM

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but I've played in tons of live mid-limit games against tons of live mid-limit opponents, and I'm pretty sure that most of them fold some pairs in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they are just folding air-overs.

*TT* · #9 11-23-2007, 05:35 PM

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[ QUOTE ]

but I've played in tons of live mid-limit games against tons of live mid-limit opponents, and I'm pretty sure that most of them fold some pairs in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they are just folding air-overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate - you play at CAZ mostly,nobody ever folds in the mid-limit games there. B-Pob is right.

Nate. · #10 11-23-2007, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

but I've played in tons of live mid-limit games against tons of live mid-limit opponents, and I'm pretty sure that most of them fold some pairs in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they are just folding air-overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate - you play at CAZ mostly,nobody ever folds in the mid-limit games there. B-Pob is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT--

People made terrible folds to me at CAZ all the time. I know this because (a) of certain statistical inferences and (b) because they'd show me sometimes. (They also called me down in ridiculous spots, but you have to remember that they aren't thinking in a 2+2 mentality, and that they can adopt strategies against me that included both bad calldowns and bad folds. Indeed, that's why I played the way I did.)

I feel like I'm in a Lewis Carroll novel here. Various people who are orders of magnitude better than me at LHE are telling me I'm wrong, but however I crunch the numbers it just seems impossible. Good thing that various other people who are orders of magnitude better than me at LHE agree with me.

--Nate