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  #11  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:45 AM
Dr_Doctr Dr_Doctr is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

There's no need to get annoyed and delete my small joke - I enjoyed the post and was about to comment.

I agree with most of what you say but it's discussed in a void. 3-betting with small/medium pocket pairs has other, significant, benefits. It disguises your 3-bets with monsters - if you're not 3-betting with 99/TT there isn't much you're 3-betting with. If you flop a set it's much easier to get paid off if Villian spikes TP or whatever. It's great for your image. It defines Villians range - you widen your 3-bet range from the blinds and he'll have to narrow his steal range - you can then get a better read. This is similar to what Gelford suggested about adjusting your range for these plays based on aggressiveness of Villian. Also I think consideration of this kind of theory is only useful against good regulars, of which there are precious few in the micros.

Of much more importance is recognising very weak players, figuring out in what way they are bad, and exploiting this correctly. Learning to truely exploit very weak players is a much more important skill that squeezing out marginal EV against regulars I think - and this probably applies for all limits. If you're playing with a bunch of good regulars you're in a bad game. If you're playing with a bunch of good regulars at a micro game it's a 2+2 invitational or something. This is not to take away from the value of the discussion in your post only from it's scope of application.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:46 AM
ama0330 ama0330 is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
Why is his bet sizing so small compared to yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isnt. If you mean the $7 on the turn, you can make it 8 or whatever, and you can make the cbet £3.50 or $4, but it makes no difference
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:47 AM
corsakh corsakh is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

Did not read all, but I don't think your fair in the assessment of the villain. In particular his frequences.

There are generally three types of regualrs.

First type is on a nitty side. He is going to raise 30% OTB but only play back with say 3% of his range. He does not adjust. You can raise almost ATC against him and there is little need to balance. You show immediate profit preflop and when he calls you can safely c/f. Our hand is irrelevant. 3betting TT probably is a waste from value point of view, however I am not sure how well I can play it from OOP.

Second type is a tagfish. He calls for set value, flush value, implied odds value, bla bla bla. He plays small PP and SC cos he has position. He raises 30% he calls 15%. He folds most of the flop cos he misses. He goes bananas on some flops because he hit his set or two pair. He calls with top pair, middle pair and draws. Typical, very easy to adjust. Three bet, see the flop and play poker as if stacks were 3 times smaller. Playing this type of guys is like playing a 30BB stack. He is a live straddle in LP. Your are ahead of his range. TT has value and is important because his range has lots of 89, KQ nad 66 types of hands.

Third type is a proper adjusting TAG who is going to 4bet you pre and call/shove/float flops. Against this sort of player you need reads and analysis. He uses position to the max. Both raised and reraised pots with TT gonna be equally hard. The reason I prefer 3bet pots is that this negates his positional advantage and gives him less room to maneuver. Best advice imho in this spot is either don't interfere (play TT purely for set/overcards value) or change the tables. If you decide to clash, I prefer 3betting for stated reasons. You have to adjust your ranges accordingly of course. And of course, implied profit from AA/KK is the absolute deciding factor here.

But I have to admit it has a lot to do with the table dynamics, your playstyle, your cbet, 3bet, float frequencies and rangesm how comfortable you feel playing a particular hand against a particular type of villain form OOP, etc [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:48 AM
fees fees is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

fwiw calling here is bad agaisnt literally any single player even with a small prf raise over a medium sized sample without a read that he minraised AA or something prf. Typically you can interpret prf minraises as weakness, imo you are DEF ahead of his range so you want to 3b
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:48 AM
Spurious Spurious is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is his bet sizing so small compared to yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isnt. If you mean the $7 on the turn, you can make it 8 or whatever, and you can make the cbet £3.50 or $4, but it makes no difference

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right again, just though the river bet was so much bigger than his bets before, but it makes sense.
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  #16  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:54 AM
creamfillin creamfillin is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

I think Gelford summed it up nicely.

Positional aggressor - 3-bet
Unknown - I prefer call
Tightish-TAG player - Call CO raise, 3-bet button open

If I have 99 on KTxr board in a 3-bet pot and I get action I'm done with the hand. I think a more interesting situation would be if the flop came all rags like:

3s 5h 8c

Hero leads for 2/3rds pot
TAG calls

What's your plan for an overcard/brick on the turn?

Or how about a flop with an overcard and a flush-draw like:

4c 8s Qs

Hero leads for 2/3rds pot
TAG calls or raises...

plan for brick turn?
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:04 PM
vieira10 vieira10 is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

I tend to just call with midpairs in the blinds. The fact that I'm out of position is my main reason. Your more likely to make mistakes OOP, especially against a competent villain. Obviously, the bigger the pot the bigger your mistakes become. Also, against a good villain (who floats a decent %age), you cant narrow down his range until you get to the turn.

The factors that would tilt into 3betting out of the blinds are:

I've seen villain fold to 3bets a good %age of the time, even in position.

If he doesnt float a lot.

And if i really think he is super weak-tight and I can run him over on later streets.
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:13 PM
kroeliewoelie kroeliewoelie is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

My analysis:

MP opens
22+,A8s+,KTs+,QJs,T9s,98s, AJo+,KJo+ = 181 combinations

If we 3bet:
4bets: QQ+,AKs = 22 combinations. We fold.
calls: 77-JJ,AQ+,98s,T9s = 61 combinations
folds: everything else = 98 combinations
EV(MP folds/4bets)= 22/181*(-6)+ 98/181*2 = -0.72+1.08=0.36

On the flop:
We cbet, he
calls: JJ,TT(will raise turn),T9 = 16 (our equity 9%, assume 0%)
raises: AKo = 12
folds: AQ,98s,77-99 = 33
EV(calls preflop; call+raise+fold)=(16+12)/181*(-12) + 33/181*6 = -1.81+1.09 = -0.79

Total EV=-0.43

So 3betting against this range doesn't seem to be profitable. But if we were up against a loose button raiser who also raises 56s-78s, A2s-A7s, A8o-ATo+,98o and other stuff we can add at least 100 handcombinations to his range that he will have to fold preflop.

In that case the total EV is
22/281*(-2)+28/281*(-12)+33/281*(6)+198/281*2=
-0.15-1.2+0.7+1.4 = 0.75.

So when the openraiser has a tight range, 3betting is not good. If he's looser 3betting is +EV. On top of that calling is worse in the second case, because a lot of his range won't stack off if we hit a set.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:15 PM
traz traz is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

Some of these EV calculations are bad because we're not really concerned with the EV we get from stealing his raise. It negates the value out of our hand and is identical to 3betting with 72.

What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless.
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:23 PM
kroeliewoelie kroeliewoelie is offline
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Default Re: A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
Some of these EV calculations are bad because we're not really concerned with the EV we get from stealing his raise. It negates the value out of our hand and is identical to 3betting with 72.

What's relevant is his calling range...his opening range is pretty useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how often do you get to showdown? If your not doing anything fancy that is not very often. In less than 10% of the cases the hand gets past the flop i.e. MP calls both preflop and on the flop. In these cases we have 9% equity, so our hand doesn't have much value. Our hand is only valuable when both we and MP are getting fancy.
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