NL200, 150bb, huge combo draw line check

[dchz]

[ QUOTE ]
With the stacksizes I like a lead more. That way you are the one making the big reraise and you're utilizing your equity much better.


Upper side of his range:

Board: Ts 9s 8d

Wins Ties Equity
43.68% 2.31% 45.99% ( AsJs )
51.69% 2.31% 54.01% ( 88-JJ,T9,T8s,67s,QJ,KsQs )


Which means that you've essentially committed yourself to the hand without being a favourite after he makes the 3-bet.

If you lead and he raises, then your reraise is the powerplay and he will have to decide what the hell to do with hands like bottom two/JJ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol there are reasons why i leave when crazy sits to my left


i do recall doing this to you when i had Ah6h on a 3hQhX board on the flop, in a 3 way pot when i was in SB, i b/3b, do you think the difference in the equity because of my lack of OESD in that spot matters?

[carrotsnake]

why would you raise without knowing what to do to a 3 bet ? Also, you have so many draws domianted, this is a ridiculously easy shove

[Dire]

[ QUOTE ]
With the stacksizes I like a lead more. That way you are the one making the big reraise and you're utilizing your equity much better.


Upper side of his range:

Board: Ts 9s 8d

Wins Ties Equity
43.68% 2.31% 45.99% ( AsJs )
51.69% 2.31% 54.01% ( 88-JJ,T9,T8s,67s,QJ,KsQs )


Which means that you've essentially committed yourself to the hand without being a favourite after he makes the 3-bet.

If you lead and he raises, then your reraise is the powerplay and he will have to decide what the hell to do with hands like bottom two/JJ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that donking is a very transparent bet->3 bet attempt especially when donking out isn't already a big part of your game. If villain doesn't want to get it all in on the flop then he's just going to simply call (or fold), and you'll be in a tough spot on the turn as your outs are all very face up. He can easily put you in a very unprofitable situation when you miss and is probably not going to pay off when you hit. Basically unless he is a horrible player, it's not going to be a tough decision for him when you 3-bet. He should be expecting/prepared for it if he raises the flop.

Because of the above and since check raising is a huge part of my game, I still prefer to just check raise. It's true he can still just call my check raise and put me in a similarly difficult situation on the turn - but the pot will be larger making it more likely I will be able to extract some decent value from him if I hit and bet/calling a checkraise is not nearly as common as somebody just calling your donk.

[bilbo-san]

Lol easy shove. IT really doesn't matter what the ranges are -- you have a ton of equity and there is already a shitton of money in the middle.

Someone already said this, but it bears repeating -- when you put 1/4 of a stack in the middle, you commit yourself with a hand like this. Calling obv sucks, folding is terrible given your equity. You have to push.

[ASPoker8]

I always 3bet preflop. Yes you have AJs vs a button open. Thats like the nuts.

I lead this flop because then BB can call with mediocre hands and you get more dead money in there because you have the stone cold nizzles baby.

But anyways, just put all your money in the pot on the flop.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the stacksizes I like a lead more. That way you are the one making the big reraise and you're utilizing your equity much better.


Upper side of his range:

Board: Ts 9s 8d

Wins Ties Equity
43.68% 2.31% 45.99% ( AsJs )
51.69% 2.31% 54.01% ( 88-JJ,T9,T8s,67s,QJ,KsQs )


Which means that you've essentially committed yourself to the hand without being a favourite after he makes the 3-bet.

If you lead and he raises, then your reraise is the powerplay and he will have to decide what the hell to do with hands like bottom two/JJ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol there are reasons why i leave when crazy sits to my left


i do recall doing this to you when i had Ah6h on a 3hQhX board on the flop, in a 3 way pot when i was in SB, i b/3b, do you think the difference in the equity because of my lack of OESD in that spot matters?

[/ QUOTE ]


TAG on TAG changes a lot of things. Villain is here described as 'slight lag'. And generally a lead is perceived as weakness and people like to turn their hands into bluffs (raising for information and what not).

Do you remember what happened for the rest in that A6 hand?

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the stacksizes I like a lead more. That way you are the one making the big reraise and you're utilizing your equity much better.


Upper side of his range:

Board: Ts 9s 8d

Wins Ties Equity
43.68% 2.31% 45.99% ( AsJs )
51.69% 2.31% 54.01% ( 88-JJ,T9,T8s,67s,QJ,KsQs )


Which means that you've essentially committed yourself to the hand without being a favourite after he makes the 3-bet.

If you lead and he raises, then your reraise is the powerplay and he will have to decide what the hell to do with hands like bottom two/JJ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that donking is a very transparent bet->3 bet attempt especially when donking out isn't already a big part of your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Transparent tag on tag. Against an unknown lagtag it's different.



[ QUOTE ]
If villain doesn't want to get it all in on the flop then he's just going to simply call (or fold), and you'll be in a tough spot on the turn as your outs are all very face up. He can easily put you in a very unprofitable situation when you miss and is probably not going to pay off when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying he will call the flop and raise a safe turn? I don't see that play very often if ever. Especially from people who are more active. Generally when people don't raise the flop they also don't raise the turn. Which is why we must fire a good second barrel.


[ QUOTE ]
Basically unless he is a horrible player, it's not going to be a tough decision for him when you 3-bet. He should be expecting/prepared for it if he raises the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same holds true for a flop c/r, but a flop lead is much better in terms of stack/pot manipulation. If villain folds to a reraise then that's perfectly fine. If we get it in then that's fine too. But we allow a lot of types of villains to make a mistake often.


[ QUOTE ]
Because of the above and since check raising is a huge part of my game, I still prefer to just check raise. It's true he can still just call my check raise and put me in a similarly difficult situation on the turn - but the pot will be larger making it more likely I will be able to extract some decent value from him if I hit

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a biased analysis.


[ QUOTE ]
and bet/calling a checkraise is not nearly as common as somebody just calling your donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

It attacks different types of ranges. If he is weakish he will flatcall, but it allows us to fire another bullet and see the river. And we're ahead of a bunch of weak holdings anyway so that's fine.
But against his stronger ranges it also allows us to make a nice move. Whereas the c/r makes a small profit against his weak holdings but if he reraises we're in a not so great spot. Also if we miss on the turn after the c/r we're in a tough spot as well.

So yes, I agree there are things to consider. But generally I think it is a good line against typical opponents.

[Bulletproof Monk]

i minreraise

[thac]

Grunch,

If you're not sure what you're gonna do if he 3-bets you, don't check-raise.

As played, just stick it in and gamble vs his overpair or whatever.

I usually bet/3-bet here and try to trap dead money from the BB due to our relative position to the PFR.