Donking into the raiser, *theory*

[Jurrr]

Mostly. Except if you have enough datamined hands but not enough hands played with the villain.

[wpr101]

I don't do that much donking into, although I'd like to experiment some. Bobbo, I think in your examples you should also include where you do it with a set and where you do it with air. Each of the examples you have a hand that really cannot stand a raise... and often the best way for villians to combat donk bets is to raise, often with nothing.

Can someone give an estimation of %s that you would it with midpair vs. set vs. air?

Is the discussion here trying to be limited to only hero donking in or are we also looking at facing a donk bet?

[zio_slim]

guys first of all I guess Bobbo is talking about smart-donkbetting, not about those people that call a 4BB raise pre oop then "fire" 1BB at the pot.

Anyway I'm interested in this smart-donkbetting thread, because it's something I use quite few times (usually not with air) and I tend to respect good players donking into me, most folding if I miss the flop rather than floating.

I guess the keys to make this play profitable are:

1 - To be against a thinking original raiser, otherwise you basically have no fold equity; against a donk you should donkbet only made hands (sets, 2pairs, straights, etc...), because HE was the original raiser and won't fold anything for pride purposes (DON'T MESS WITH MY POT BRO); I'd rather checkraise a gutshot aginst a donk instead of betting oop.

2 - Like someone said you'll get yourself into troubles doing this with marginal holdings (like Bobbo advocates) if called, so I wouldn't do it against an unknown or without a plan for a raise and for any turn card that may fall.

BTW I consider "never donkbetting" a leak, I don't think you should always check oop, donkbetting often works in a deceptive-tilting way that can be profitable if correctly used (and not abused).

[GoldenIP]

[ QUOTE ]
put two bullets in your gun, and carry a third in your pocket.

[/ QUOTE ]

love this analogy. this could make for an awesome discussion. may this thread not die for a while! nh bobbo.

i took everything in as i find it a very interesting, and all too common situation. however, the reason i've been reluctant recently to lead into the PFRer is because, the PFRer, often recognises this and raises leaving me with a decision. Is he bluff raising cause he knows I'm trying to take control of the pot size? Or, is he raising because he really does have the g00dz!?

an example which has troubled me recently:

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > BTN just calls > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r

so i'm thinking, "okay, TP, but i still don't reeeally know where i'm at with 2 left to act".

i really try to mix this up typically. sometimes i will lead for 2/3 pot, sometimes (and more frequently recently), i'll c/r, and sometimes i'll c/c. i'm more interested in the lead and the c/c. let's say i lead $32...

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

i suppose the tl:dr question is, what's your typical move, in such a hand as aforementioned, when the PFR raises you on the flop or calls, for that matter?

i reluctantly fold giving him the benefit of the doubt usually unless i've got a good understanding of my villain...

i may have answered my own question but i suppose tl:dr (part II) is, it feels that, more often than not, any donk-bet i make is raised and i end up hating my PF play let alone my flop play!

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW I consider "never donkbetting" a leak, I don't think you should always check oop, donkbetting often works in a deceptive-tilting way that can be profitable if correctly used (and not abused).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a leak. You can accomplish most of the same things same things by cc, cf, and cr. I do think the donk bet is a nice move to use sparingly though.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my main issue with donk betting. A lot of times a good player is going to raise that bet (reading it for what it was) and put you in tough situation.

When we do have a set and fire the turn it looks like our hand might be obvious... but I suppose I am then making a argument that double barrel donking would be a good bluff. I like Aejones is right here in that if you donk you should often be prepared to bet all three streets.

[ValarMorghulis]

I think most people cbet too much. That is a big leak of theirs which can be exploited. But to exploit this you have to let them cbet.

How people react to donk bets is more unknown. Some people always raise donkbets for example.

Against people who don't cbet much I am much more likely to donkbet.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
n example which has troubled me recently:

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > BTN just calls > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r

so i'm thinking, "okay, TP, but i still don't reeeally know where i'm at with 2 left to act".

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
The example would be much more interesting if the pot were HU to the flop, here I think you have a pretty clear fold.

[Triumph36]

hand 1 is a terrible spot to donk - it's a terrific value bluff

what in the world are you doing - trying to fold out QQ/KK?

[GoldenIP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
n example which has troubled me recently:

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > BTN just calls > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r

so i'm thinking, "okay, TP, but i still don't reeeally know where i'm at with 2 left to act".

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
The example would be much more interesting if the pot were HU to the flop, here I think you have a pretty clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, probably right. Let's turn this hand into HU. Again, here it is (revised):

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r > i decide to lead for $30 >

(a) PFR raises to a hundy....
(b) PFR flat calls....

(a) Hero????
(b) turn card: insignifant 5 > Hero????

a note about (b): you have to bear in mind there aren't a lot of non-scary cards that could come where you could convince yourself to continue betting. I see a 2, 4, 5 as the only real non-scary cards. anyways, for the sake of argument...go with the above...