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  #51  
Old 10-13-2007, 07:28 AM
Nick Rivers Nick Rivers is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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- I don't remember/know a lot about Backgammon AI, but I think I remember the search tree for it is really shallow because of the probability element (ie. each possible turn has many possibilities since the moves allowed are determined by rolling the dice). Is it possible that the backgammon algorithms can't be run fast enough on typical machines to play in real time against another player?

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No.

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- Its possible Bot detection algorithms are good enough to find these bots. I doubt this will be true in 5 - 10 years. Similar to my argument above, the interface is just too narrow between hosting site and the player to make bot detection possible in the long term.

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No. There are bots in action on backgammon sites.

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- There isn't the money in Backgammon that there is in Poker, and thats a big factor when writing these bots.

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There isn't, but the bots exist. AI has been able to defeat any human player for a long time at backgammon; turning it into bots or even just player-assisting tools didn't take long after the emergence of online BG money games.

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- Backgammon hasn't received the attention Poker has, so potentially thats a factor in the short term.

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Irrelevant. BG has received enough attention and the AI has been developed for long enough to render humans second-rate.

Invincible (in terms of EV) bots for BG exist and yet people still play these online money games. Players can generally tell later if they've been "cheated," by simply plugging the games they've played into Snowie and seeing if the opponent made any mistakes. A zero mistake rate indicates another player using AI (probably Snowie) and either a bot or a player-assisting program. But, by that time, they've already wagered their money. And, the next time, they may be up against the same bot under a different username and fall into the same trap again. I suppose the intrepid players are willing to fade these bankroll hits, though, because of the many moronic players out there. Just like it will be in poker when "unbeatable" bots are all over the place.
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  #52  
Old 10-13-2007, 09:28 AM
jjshabado jjshabado is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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Invincible (in terms of EV) bots for BG exist and yet people still play these online money games. Players can generally tell later if they've been "cheated," by simply plugging the games they've played into Snowie and seeing if the opponent made any mistakes. A zero mistake rate indicates another player using AI (probably Snowie) and either a bot or a player-assisting program. But, by that time, they've already wagered their money. And, the next time, they may be up against the same bot under a different username and fall into the same trap again. I suppose the intrepid players are willing to fade these bankroll hits, though, because of the many moronic players out there. Just like it will be in poker when "unbeatable" bots are all over the place.

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I'll have to look into BackGammon AI/Bots more, because I don't know enough about it now.

The 0-mistake way of detecting bots is useless in the long term. One, its too late to do anything about it except ban that user which really isn't that big of a deal. Two, if it ever became a big inconvenience to bot operators all they have to do is make their bot slightly "dumber". There's always room to make some mistakes but fewer then the human opponents.

I'll throw another difference between poker and backgammon. The availability of alternative games. I'm in NYC and I have no idea where I'd find a live backgammon game played for money. I'm sure games exist, but they're underground and the option of going to AC to play backgammon doesn't really exist.
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  #53  
Old 10-15-2007, 11:33 AM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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All of your solutions rely on Bots not becoming really good at mimicking people, or on technology that would be "tamper proof".

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EVERY conceivable solution relies on the first of these. If bots can become arbitrarily good at mimicking people, of course they will be able to play poker like people.
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  #54  
Old 10-15-2007, 07:27 PM
jjshabado jjshabado is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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All of your solutions rely on Bots not becoming really good at mimicking people, or on technology that would be "tamper proof".

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EVERY conceivable solution relies on the first of these. If bots can become arbitrarily good at mimicking people, of course they will be able to play poker like people.

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And thats my point. Bots will become arbitrarily good at mimicking people especially with the very limited interface poker sites have of querying the user.
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  #55  
Old 10-15-2007, 08:02 PM
Josem Josem is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

This is such a silly discussion.

If the question is:

"If bots are able to be made indistinguishable from humans, will it be possible to distinguish between bots and humans?"

then it is obviously truistic. If you extend it over an infinite time period into the future, then, assuming continued technological development, in the indefinite future it will obviously be impossible to differentiate computers from humans.


A far better question is:

"Is it reasonable in the near future to make it massively difficult for bots to play online?"

and then the answer is "Yes." Things such as webcams, developed questions and answers, and so on, will help.
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  #56  
Old 10-15-2007, 08:13 PM
jjshabado jjshabado is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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This is such a silly discussion.

If the question is:

"If bots are able to be made indistinguishable from humans, will it be possible to distinguish between bots and humans?"

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Yes that would be a silly question. But that wasn't the question.

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"Is it reasonable in the near future to make it massively difficult for bots to play online?"

and then the answer is "Yes." Things such as webcams, developed questions and answers, and so on, will help.

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Webcams would help since its significantly widening the interface through which people and the poker sites interact. However, even that isn't foolproof and many people wouldn't like it anyway.

Developed Questions and Answers won't work. Computers can already emulate human responses to textual questions at a level equivalent to many English as a Second Language people. To make the questions detailed enough to stump a computer you eliminate a large number of your customer base.

What are your other ideas? There aren't many that are practical and useful in the medium time frame of 5-10 years out.
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  #57  
Old 10-15-2007, 08:35 PM
Josem Josem is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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There aren't many that are practical and useful in the medium time frame of 5-10 years out.


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How about:

"In the picture above, is the boy or girl taller?"
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  #58  
Old 10-15-2007, 10:30 PM
jjshabado jjshabado is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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There aren't many that are practical and useful in the medium time frame of 5-10 years out.


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How about:

"In the picture above, is the boy or girl taller?"

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And you're going to come up with thousands of these? Adding new ones every day? All that don't screw over people that don't speak the language very well and come from various cultural backgrounds. Also, in five-ten years I'm not convinced that we couldn't come up with something that did really well on these. Interpreting the question is easy, its just a matter of processing the image. There are a few typical visual clues that we use to determine sex. I realize that this is just one example, but I'm not convinced that these are a realistic solution.

And of course there's still my good old fall back position of hiring people in 3rd world countries to handle these types of things. If AI is good enough to make $1/hour at a table, you can easily pay somebody a wage to answer these questions and still make a decent amount of money.
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  #59  
Old 10-16-2007, 02:39 PM
indianaV8 indianaV8 is offline
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Default Re: Can You Write a Sure-fire Algorithm to Stop Bots?

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There aren't many that are practical and useful in the medium time frame of 5-10 years out.


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How about:

"In the picture above, is the boy or girl taller?"

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And you're going to come up with thousands of these? Adding new ones every day? All that don't screw over people that don't speak the language very well and come from various cultural backgrounds. Also, in five-ten years I'm not convinced that we couldn't come up with something that did really well on these. Interpreting the question is easy, its just a matter of processing the image. There are a few typical visual clues that we use to determine sex. I realize that this is just one example, but I'm not convinced that these are a realistic solution.

And of course there's still my good old fall back position of hiring people in 3rd world countries to handle these types of things. If AI is good enough to make $1/hour at a table, you can easily pay somebody a wage to answer these questions and still make a decent amount of money.

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There is no need for a third world country, this service is offered via internet TODAY. If you don't want to pay, you can alternatively implement a system that sends you an email in case of question, you get it on your cell, and reply back, where the bot pickups.
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