gutter + flush draw

[private joker]

Commerce 20, good game.

Two early limpers, I limp along in MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Folded to SB who completes, BB checks. 5 to the flop.

Flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB bets (LAGgish Asian lady from my KK post), UTG raises (seems like an idiot fish), EP2 cold-calls (loose passive bad lady), I...

3-bet for value+free card? Call and re-evaluate on the turn? SB in this hand, by the way, is an insane maniac who never folds.

[sharpie]

It seems like the only one who might fold is BB, but even if she does we make more money by 3 betting and getting the almost guaranteed bets from UTG and EP2, and from your read SB, we have almost 50% equity and the possible free card is icing on the cake.

[SNOWBALL]

Better to call. You don't care very much about getting a free card with this many outs with multiway action on the turn, because you're almost getting the right betting odds 4 way with one to come. I think think the pot is big enough to justify buying outs by knocking out A8 or whatever. Also, the outs you would buy probably would not be good anyway.

[Nyquiz]

I think I like a call here more than a 3-bet. The SB being ridiculous helps the case but doesn't make it worth it. If hes calling 3-bets cold he's definitely calling 2 cold, BB doesn't fold here for 1 extra either. However, if you 3-bet you could lose both SB and BB along with your equity. I assume we are trying to make the most money possible here and not try to get a better hand to fold.

This way if the gutter hits you will likely see a bet and a call in front of you on the turn, now you can raise and trap those two players. Even though you might get a free card on the turn I'm not sure if I'd want one in this situation.

[stinkpaw]

I don't play LHE much so I know this is a basic question but something I always have problems with.

We are getting 5:1 to call with potentially 12 outs. But we are facing reverse implied odds that can cost us big on the later rounds if our flush outs aren't good. EP2 could easily have a better FD calling 2 bets here.

I usually go into call down mode here, but that can't be optimal.

[cgrohman]

I go for call and reevaluate on turn. I dont think a 3 bet will necessarily buy you a free card.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I go for call and reevaluate on turn. I dont think a 3 bet will necessarily buy you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

The free card would be a bonus, I think -- the real reason to 3-bet would be for value. If all 12 outs are clean, then I have 46% equity in a 5-way pot. If we discount half of those outs because a bigger flush draw might be out, then we still have 23% equity in a 5-way pot. RIO might indeed cost us somewhat (although I don't think we necessarily have to raise a river diamond if someone donks into us) but given that we're putting 20% into the pot on this street, it seems upon initial assessment that we have more than enough equity to jam this. No?

[ProfessorBen]

3-town!
I think this would be different if we were worried about SB going away but your read seems to indicate that villain is just as willing to call 3 bets as he is 2. I agree that the free card is a nice bonus, especially if the board pairs on the turn.

[rafiki]

ya I 3ball all day here.

[Greenmachine]

god gotta 3 bet this for all the reasons joker said.