Is This Cheating?

[wtfsvi]

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Still think it is just 'unethical'?

What if PlayerA is just trying to help his friend and there is no 'agreement'?

[/ QUOTE ] Showing someone your cards on purpose is obviously cheating. Noone has said anything else. That doesn't necessarily mean that seeing someone's cards and then taking advantage of your new information is cheating.

And in case someone misunderstands, I'm not saying it's ok to not at least give a warning.

[rafiki]

Man I don't even believe in warning someone. Nobody warns a hockey player to keep his head up skating across the middle of the ice. Nobody warns a QB to not throw the ball too high for the slot receiver (before the receiver gets laid out). Everybody is playing for real, and everybody is doing whatever it takes to win. If some idiot doesn't want to take responsability for his hole cards, tough luck.

[StevieG]

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Everybody is playing for real, and everybody is doing whatever it takes to win.

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The mistake in your analogy is that assumption is not true for everyone at the poker table. For some players, poker is just a a way to have fun.

As a serious, prepared player, you should love these folks, and cater to them a bit, because they represent the -EV side that balances your +EV.

Now suppose one of these fun loving players stumbles into your game, is lax about protecting his hand, and then at some point realizes what is happening, and that the player on the right is taking advantage of that, without ever telling him?

Everyone's reaction is different, but it could be that the player resents playing with cut-throats, and decides to walk.

You have enough advantage from the mistakes other people mention (chasing draws improperly, etc) that you do not need to use this angle.

By telling the clueless player about it, you may just convince that player the game is friendlier than it actually is.

[pfapfap]

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A tell is something everybody has a chance to discover.

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Eh, I don't know about that. What if the person inhales sharply but quietly with a good flop? Not everybody will have a chance to notice. What about a tapping foot that only those next to the player can notice?

I think it's polite and respectful of the game to let the player know you can see them, and agree with the one warning, at least when you're in a hand. When you're not, use it as information to determine how the person plays.

[bernie]

Assuming it's accidental, no it's not. Cheating, imo, comes with intent. Like going out of your way to see his cards. But just looking over as you're watching the table and seeing them? Cheating is much too strong a word. I guess if you keep doing it and don't bring it up to the guy I can see it.

Part of live play is protecting your hand. That includes protecting them from others seeing them, not just protecting them from the muck.

To this day, I haven't seen one (still live)player ever stop a hand, postflop, to point out that another players hand was exposed to him. I have seen mentions of it preflop.

b

[dopp16]

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its not cheating and you never have to tell him, not even once.

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[bav]

It may be unethical, but I don't tell someone DURING a hand once there's significant action that I saw his cards unless it's heads-up. It's far too disruptive. The whole table comes unglued and you become a bad guy. The person who exposed his cards is mad because you saw them and mad because you said something. The other players are mad because you know something they don't. The floor comes over and gets annoyed because he has to make a tough ruling, and then the other players get mad at you and the floor because the floor says he won't make the guy expose his cards, or the player who exposed his cards gets REALLY mad at the floor and you if the floor decides to force him to reveal his cards. It's completely no-win for me.

I'm usually very altruistic, but sometimes the price is too high. Preflop before there's any serious money out there, ok. After the guy folds, ok. Heads-up, ok. But not when there's still action pending from him in a multi-way pot.

[flytrap]

It depends on the game. If I'm playing 10/20 NL or 5/10 NL which is serious for me, I don't say anything. I'm there for the money, and if someone with a couple grand on the table doesn't know how to protect their cards, that's their fault. At that level, most players should be serious about the game, whether they are good or not. If I'm playing 5/10 limit while waiting for a seat, I'll say something, since I'm there to have fun, as are most 5/10 players.

[cking]

If the guy is accidently showing you his hole cards thats his fault and 1 warning is good method, if he fails to do what he's supposed to do when playing the game it isnt your fault. Now obviously if your activly peeking around his sholder or something that's a different story

[Howard Beale]

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My approach (which I think is pretty standard) is to tell the person who lets me see his cards that I can see his cards ONE time.

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Do you ask him loud enough so the rest of the table is aware of the situation?

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I use my normal voice. If anybody is listening they can hear it. I understand your intimation. I am not attempting to conceal the fact that I may have information unavailable to others. The fact of the matter is that most players are so unobservant they would never know anyway, even if I shout it.

There are related, similar situations:

What do you do when a player across the table from you consistently mucks his cards in a manner that enables you to see one or both of them? Do you warn him? I don't. However, I did ask a player sitting next to me once not to muck in that manner because I knew players across from him could see his cards and I was at a disadvantage. I said 'please don't.......' and he got so mad at me for telling him what to do you'd think he was 5 years old rather than 65.