NL25 weak/good c/f?

MaltbyStu · #1 10-10-2007, 10:51 PM

Only about 30 hands on villain. He's TAG stats and not crazy, first time I've seen him 3-bet.

I'm too chicken to 4-bet here. Is this a standard c/f, I can't see what good a lead is here but then again if I fold this all I'm hoping to do is hit a Q which seems stupid and a waste of money PF?

I guess I have to figure out WTF to do in 3-bet pots. Advice?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($19.30)
Hero ($28.20)
Button ($24.65)
SB ($31.15)
BB ($16.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, Button raises to $3.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.25.

Flop: ($6.85) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $6.85

PJo336 · #2 10-10-2007, 10:54 PM

Theres no reason to fold here if you are going to call him preflop. You turned QQ into a set mining hand. Either 4bet/fold preflop, or felt on the flop with this board

Logun · #3 10-10-2007, 11:01 PM

this is WAY weak. If you can't find 4 bet PF then why are you calling? Seems like you are only set mining with QQ!!

4 bet PF

crai flop

MaltbyStu · #4 10-10-2007, 11:07 PM

PF he has to be on TT+ to make this break even and even though it's a small sample I have against him I have to give it a little weight that he's probably on JJ+. Against a maniac I'm 4-betting and felting this all the time.
This just seems mega high variance against this guy but then again i feel if I fold QQ PF I might as well give up poker.

PJo336 · #5 10-10-2007, 11:08 PM

As u said u have 30 hands on him, this is not enuff to deem he only had JJ+ here

MaltbyStu · #6 10-10-2007, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is WAY weak. If you can't find 4 bet PF then why are you calling? Seems like you are only set mining with QQ!!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what it felt like and that's why I'm asking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

slimon · #7 10-11-2007, 02:37 AM

If your 4-betting does that mean your raising or again or going all in? I'm guessing 4-betting means raising again but how much to raise again? Reraise to 12 or more? How do you know if 4-betting is better in this situation or going all in is better?

willyc · #8 10-11-2007, 03:37 AM

You have to 4-bet here. Make it 8.75 and fold to a shove. You either take the pot down there or if he just calls you can be pretty sure you're good on that flop.

Just calling his 3-bet doesn't give you the information you need to play well after the flop. You have no idea whether you're way ahead or way behind. QQ is too good a hand just to play for set value unless you're up against someone raising 3% of hands.

MaltbyStu · #9 10-11-2007, 08:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to 4-bet here. Make it 8.75 and fold to a shove. You either take the pot down there or if he just calls you can be pretty sure you're good on that flop.

Just calling his 3-bet doesn't give you the information you need to play well after the flop. You have no idea whether you're way ahead or way behind. QQ is too good a hand just to play for set value unless you're up against someone raising 3% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people will call a 4-bet with KK+ knowing that the 3-bettor will fold a good deal of the time, so I don't necessarily agree with your reasoning that if he calls I will be good on that flop.

I'm also uneasy committing 1/3 of my stack to a 4-bet and then folding it. His (limited) stats made me uneasy 4-betting.

jakrpanda · #10 10-11-2007, 10:47 AM

Yes, but here's the advantage - when he pushes you get to fold and get away from what could be a hand that takes more than just 1/3 your stack. You're OOP in this hand, you don't want to be fumbling around in the dark when the flop comes.

Second - you get the opportunity to c-bet the flop with "authority". If you've portrayed strength PF then this will seem more legit.

Third, we should be playing against a range of hands:

For you to be truly -EV post flop his range would have to be strictly JJ+. I ran the numbers through pokerstove and even with a villain range of JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ you would be 60%/40%

My play on this hand? I would've re-raised typically PF and then lead out with a c-bet. On the other times when I just call I would c-bet the flop and go from there. If he shows more strength I'd evaluate again.

IMO, If you are always suspecting the "trap" you're going to play timid, which isn't ideal. You'll be folding too much and you're good opponents will take advantage of this.