50 NL...slow playing monster on flop?

llamage · #1 10-02-2007, 03:53 AM

So my question here is...how often do you guys check the flop here? Also, my friend who is a winning player at higher stakes says that I should bet this flop no matter what. He says that when I check the flop, it gives my hand away a lot to a GOOD player, and that the good player can get away from his hand. Also, I think in the future, people will say "gee, this guy slow plays his monsters". He says its a more advanced concept and he was busy. He will explain it to me later...anyways for now assuming villain has some sort of strong hand, do we want him to catch up or bet like normal?
BTW, villain is a ssdex, respectable poster, what do you guys think he has [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($34.55)
CO ($83.65)
Button ($12.80)
SB ($53.75)
Hero ($51.25)
UTG ($100.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $5.5, SB calls $4.

Flop: ($11) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($11) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero raises to $23.5, SB raises to $48.25, Hero calls $22.25 (All-In).

River: ($102.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $102.50

Nick C · #2 10-02-2007, 04:07 AM

It's a great spot to be in, because a good chunk of money went in preflop relative to your stacks and Villain is going to have trouble getting away if the board hit him at all.

On the downside, there are really only 5 good cards and you have two of them, so often if you bet the flop, Villain will just fold.

Checking does give him a chance to catch a gutshot or something. Or maybe he'll be fooled and pay off if his KQ or whatever makes a pair.

I think your flop check is all right in this instance, since there are some reasonable chances that Villain will improve and there's a good chance you'll be able to get your stack in versus Ax anyway (since you aren't really that far from being all-in), even without continuing to build a pot on the flop. (And versus, Jx, you won't have any trouble at all, unless both of you slowplay all the way to showdown.) But you should be aware that your flop check a very, very popular way to play monster hands, and it's the way pretty much all of the fish play them.

I think what your friend is talking about goes something like this: When a good player sees a check behind on a flop like this one (instead of a c-bet) from the last preflop raiser, it sets off tentative alarm bells because of how popular this slowplay is, so if the preflop 3-bettor ever wakes up with a big bet or raise, the good player is going to think, "Yep, slowplayed monster." And this becomes much more relevant if the pot size relative to the effective stacks is smaller and there's a lot more money left to get in.

brandysbich · #3 10-02-2007, 05:01 AM

I normally like to keep people in the hand while building the pot by betting like half pot as a cbet, nobody with a J or FD or the case ace is letting go of this hand anyway so might as well build the pot more and hope his hand improves. Then again if you certain villain has another PP its ok to check and hope he boats up

guitarizt · #4 10-02-2007, 12:33 PM

I like checking. He might put you on QQ-KK. If I were playing I'd flat call the turn and hope he fires the river again so I could shove. I'm not sure if that's optimal.

DonManuel · #5 10-02-2007, 12:35 PM

fold flop

bazooka87 · #6 10-02-2007, 12:36 PM

Aaah almost everyone checks in this spot nowadays, personally I'm not a fan. Every time this happens, just think how often you'll actually get him to bet his range on the turn

kash munni · #7 10-02-2007, 12:43 PM

I cbet flop, check T, push river.

.xxxx. · #8 10-02-2007, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like checking. you could put him on QQ-KK and get him to take a stab on the turn. If I were playing I'd hope he fires the turn so I could shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

.xxxx. · #9 10-02-2007, 01:11 PM

Also, with respect to what your friend's comments were, I agree that you need to bet the flop on some frequency, but that should be a habit you ease into as you move up in stakes. I highly doubt anyone is taking that good of notes up to 1/2 and even implementing many successful adjustments on the reads they do have.

guitarizt · #10 10-02-2007, 01:19 PM

Ok I've been thinking more about it and I like checking against a bad player because in my experience bad players do some stupid thing when I just check call down. Even though I know my line of check/calling might not build a big pot and I should in theory have a harder time stacking them, sometimes they just go crazy.

Against most players, and especially because it's bvb, I'd instapot flop, check/check or check/call turn, and get it in on the river.

If he reraises flop I'd call and hope he fires on the turn. If he checks I'd check behind in case he's still completely bluffing. I really don't think he'd check the turn though after reraising the flop.