Trying to learn when to check the turn

[00Snitch]

i dont know if this is of any interest to anyone, but the boards look quiet, so ill ramble for a bit

i think im too agro with my c-bets. in position, it feels like most times i fire on the flop and turn. hence, ive been trying to think more objectivly about where i c-bet, especially on the turn.

i believe this hand is a perfect place to check behind on the turn. (maybe the flop too?! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) my opponent is pretty tight and very passive preflop (20/10/0.68), but not super tight post-flop with a wtsd of 35%.

however, i think the combination of the non-draw board and my opponents passiveness makes this a good place to check-behind.

this may be basic for all you, but as i said, its somethign im working on, plus, no one else seems to be posting tonight. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

PS. feel free to comment on the rest of the hand too., the flop bet looks a bit weird in hindsight. i think the PFR is pretty standard when the table average VPIP is 18%.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7SB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>

[Poker Plan]

Yep, I think I would check the flop. I normally play the hand as you played it- but I don't think it's neccessarily correct. SB was willing to call PF, and is now willing to call the flop bet- what is it he is drawing to? Maybe he has middle pair, maybe a small PP and is going to call you down?

I think I'd want at least A high to take this line.

Ian

[lstephen666]

I think the flop bet is marginal. The main thing that worries me is that it's against three others, but the board may have missed the cold callers, so I don't think it's terrible.

I would definitely check behind on the turn. There are no real draws out there, so you're not likelyto be called by a hand that you beat, and whatever SB called the flop with is likely to be enough to call here as well.

[Niediam]

I bet the flop.

Turn here is closer. If i knew the SB was a a loose moron I'd definately fire again. With this guy I think I want to check though as he is reasonably tight.

The fact that villian is passive however should be a reason to bet if you think the decision is close. You certainly won't be checkraised by air or a draw and rarely by even top pair. If you are raised you can consider yourself drawing dead and easily fold.

[22pajo]

These are spots i continually find myself in. Invariably i end up firing on flop, turn and river and getting called down by a mid pair or AT etc. and being beaten.

As for your hand i fire at the flop every time here. 2 over cards to the board is a good spot for a c-bet but against 2 villains probably makes it marginal but i fire none the less.

Whether i bet the turn or not pretty much depends on what kind of player the SB is. If he defends his SB a lot i'll fire again. If he's pretty tight i'm checking behind.

I assume you have seen this c-beting guide.

[sean c]

I c-bet the flop here against two almost always especially stuck in the middle. The second best thing that could have happened did with MP2 folding. Now you have position and should have options on the turn. What to do does depend on the SB but i tend to fire again more often than check especially when a really good card falls on the turn like happened here. He doesn't have to fold often for the bet to show a profit. You can't call a river bet with K high. Your not always behind when he calls. You can't just always blindly c-bet two streets with missed overcards. How many players, how they play and your position are always very important things to consider but i like betting the turn here.

[NIX]

Without a read/breakdown on SB's FtFB/FtTB numbers, I'd usually bet this flop and check this turn. He's rather tight preflop, so I don't think there is much help he can find on the flop other than a set, ten, or perhaps six. He also may have a pocket pair or perhaps two overs. Most of those hands aren't folding on the turn if they called on the flop, so I'd take a free card here and hope to improve.

[Befolder]

Grunch.

I've got some cleaning up to do on when I check the turn too. I've gotten a good handle on checking w/ outs when I pick up a draw on the turn, but my overs have missed so far. Getting c/r'd on the turn when you could take that free card to hit sucks.

I'm less likely to bet the turn when a known tight, tricky player has just called my missed flop cbet. My problem after that is figuring out whether I should call their river bet which is nearly inevitable if I'm still ace high.

Thinking about it now, it probably has to do if there was a flop draw that didn't seem to finish on the river. If it wasn't drawy and they bet the river, they're probably more likely to at least have a pair. Yes?

I dont' mind this flop cbet vs 2 since the board is uncoordinated and you still have two overs. If it were coordinated, I don't cbet because a draw is going to call you anyway so your fold equity is nil.

It's tough to say if another bet shouldn't go in on the turn. If our opponent also has overs, he just missed again also, but their not on a draw so the other option is we're behind. I think this one is close, but I don't know the right action.

[Poker Plan]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't just always blindly c-bet two streets with missed overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you tell me! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[antneye]

Am I the only one who fold pre-flop? KJO is not exactly a great hand. In LP I am raising 1st in, but MP1? I am mucking it.