L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.

[GaSSPaNiCC]

Seeming as no one has asked this question yet, i'll be the first one to do so: Why are you so certain there is no afterlife? Seriously, just because you are an atheist does not mean you have to choose to disbelieve in an afterlife. One has never been proven or disproven, it is simply beyond the realm of science to prove or disprove. Please do not take someone's word face value by concluding there isn't one either. I mean your consciousness in mondern science cannot even be explained by a physical means, of course it eventually could be, but if you actually do research there are scientific studies in this line of work which suggest quite the opposite. Look up the Afterlife Experiments and the book Irreducible Mind, if you're interested and i think you'll be more then surprised.

[foal]

it is true the concept of consciousness is very poorly understood in cognitive science. my cog sci teachers just dismisses it with "I don't know what consciousness is".

[Phil153]

Fear of death is rarely the problem. The problem is likely something else in your life that's causing you to focus on it.

There's a range of emotions we can feel in any given situation, all the way from utter despair to joy. There is usually a reason you feel one and not the other which is completely unrelated to the situation you're in. It may be a function of habits you've developed, lack of meaningful contact with others, boredom, lack of future plans, timelines developed when you were younger (causing you to freak out) and so on. None are more rational than any other - they're just a function of what's going on in our habits and belief systems, and if we want to change we have to manage these things.

Forget death for a moment. It's completely out of your control. If you develop the wisdom to understand that, it ceases to be a concern. Instead focus on taking creative control of your life. If you make it challenging enough, managing your own life is very satisfying and rewarding - and fills a void that alcohol cannot.

Finally, a bit of perspective. Imagine you live in a universe where you're given a brief period of time, with no guarantees, after which your consciousness is snuffed out for eternity. Given eternity to think about it and plan your time, what you do in such a world? Your considered answer to that question, taking your feelings into account and realizing the limits of your own power, should give you some kind of guide.

[Phil153]

I'd also add that there are a lot of things needed to keep a person healthy and vibrant. If you stopped eating food you'd start getting sick, and it's no different with your emotional and social needs. We're very much built to live highly active, socially saturated lifestyles in small groups, and if those needs aren't met then we can easily fall into a state of unhealthiness. We need adventure and meaning in life and without them we can tend to stagnate.

The other thing to realize Western society sterilizes a lot of the joys and sanities of life, especially if you're older, and it really is up to the individual to continue creating a meaningful and diverse life. I don't know you at all, and I may be wrong, but in most cases I think the problem may be more related to that than actual the fear of death.

[revots33]

Mitzi Dalton-Huntley:"Why do people have to die?"
Nate Fisher: "To make life important."

-Six Feet Under

[foal]

[ QUOTE ]
Fear of death is rarely the problem. The problem is likely something else in your life that's causing you to focus on it.

There's a range of emotions we can feel in any given situation, all the way from utter despair to joy. There is usually a reason you feel one and not the other which is completely unrelated to the situation you're in. It may be a function of habits you've developed, lack of meaningful contact with others, boredom, lack of future plans, timelines developed when you were younger (causing you to freak out) and so on. None are more rational than any other - they're just a function of what's going on in our habits and belief systems, and if we want to change we have to manage these things.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to say you're totally wrong, but I doubt that's all there is to it. I've had some major depression issues in my time and always found the thought of death as a comfort rather than something depressing. Some people start having death fits as early as age four and it continues into later life. I doubt these four year olds are displacing existentialist or depression issues(?) I could be wrong.

[Lestat]

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Imagine that there really was an afterlife... Now you'd have all kinds of things to worry about. Will the Supreme Creator like you enough? Or will He send you to an eternal dungeon where you will suffer, and writh, and cry in agony, forever and ever until the end of time? How scary is THAT? And even if you yourself pass the muster, you have all this to worry about for your friends, family and loved ones as well. No THAT should depress you!

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Small sample size here, but every Christian I know, figures hell is a pretty simple place for them to avoid. They don’t sit around and worry about themselves, so much as about unbelievers like me. I’m on half a dozen prayer lists, and it still hasn’t remedied me from this current losing streak.

P.S. I know you are addressing Hitch, who sounds like an unbeliever, so he has plenty to worry about I suppose. As for me, I so thoroughly don't believe in Hell, that I never give it a moments thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get that. Since God doesn't like those who are smug, hell is a very real possibility for anyone! Christians: You sin every day. You have sex out of wedlock. You don't honor your father and mother. You're going to covet your cousin's hot little wife tomorrow at the family Thanksgiving dinner! You don't observe the Sabbath day. You did not give a 3rd of your wealth to those more needy than yourself. Be afraid of hell... Be very afraid!

But getting back to reality and those of us who don't believe in such things... Death doesn't seem scary to me all. I'll be the first to admit that the "process" of dying scares the bejeesus out of me. But the death part is easy. You simply don't exist anymore. What can be easier and less painless than that?

[tshort]

hitch,

I'll spare you the details of my pre-agnostic background, but just imagine the standard guy from growing up in Kansas. My parent's never really pushed religion on me and probably attend church ~10 times a year. Two years ago I was in a very similar state of depression as you (I'm 23 now).

One night it just hit me that I would cease exist after I died and my life was meaningless in the entire context of infinity. I had panic-attacks thinking about it until the point where I was going to puke. For weeks, it was like a song I couldn't get out of my ahead. Avoiding thinking about it was no use and the worst was trying to go to sleep without watching basically passing out. I had to fall asleep watching a movie or be drunk (which was the case 4-5 nights a week).

I developed this idea that humans could potentially live forever (or save my state of consciousness in some way forever). So, I got back into really good shape by eating healthy and working out 5-6 days a week. Regardless, I was really depressed inevitably thinking about my finite consciousness. I didn't do much for a while beyond work out, sleep, and kept drinking (yes this goes against getting healthy, but going out worked as a good anti-depressant). I also stopped caring about my responsibilities. I would pay rent like 2 weeks late even though I had plenty of money (and my parent's gave me rent money). It is impossible to understand for people who haven't been through depression (even though at the time I wouldn't label myself "depressed). I think the best term is "existential crisis" and other factors in your life can make the depression even worse.

How did things change?

At first, I worried only about the short-term. At that point I though life is ultimately meaningless. I started playing more hours of poker because it was easy to make a ton of money to blow on random stuff. I lost my fear of approaching a random attractive girl at the bar. I stopped being so serious about life. Before you know it, I was enjoying life again. Thoughts of death stopped concerning me... I was too busy living.

Do I still think about it in the way it originally hit me? Definitely on occasion. It still hits me on occasion and I have the minor panic attacks. Yes, these occasional fears are horrible. You learn how to practically deal with it. In some ways the occasional thoughts of death keep me grounded in the reality of life.

Is there a philosophical answer? I haven't seen one.

If this is something that is negatively effecting your life and family, seeking help might be a good idea. I've never had a worse time period in my life than the month or two where I was thinking about everything in relation to death. There is no easy and ultimate solution in my experience.

You are definitely doing the best thing... seeking the advice of people who have contemplated these issues.

Infinite Existence Topic

Really think about the idea of living forever and you'll probably find it's a scary idea too.

Those discussing the Transhumanist movement? Do you really think you'll be able to live forever? If no, what's the difference between living 75 years and 250 years? Or 75 and 1000?


Lestat, Subfallen

You bring up the argument of "Does imagining all the time before you existed terrify you?" Obviously not. If you can accurately describe everything as finitely existing in "space time," then from my perspective we only travel in one direction of time. The terrifying part is leaving (infinitely) the state where you have consciousness.

Also, going to sleep was terrifying for me when I was in a state of depression. I had the irrational fear of never waking up. Obviously we are conditioned to realize that is irrational.

I am no longer fearful of death, but I definitely understand what hitch is experiencing. I don't know there's an easy solution to his state of mind.

[DougShrapnel]

Hey hitch, I personally find a certain comfort in death. Not that I'm in a hurry or anything, but like the ancient greeks there is a certain benefit to thinking of death as the cure for all of lifes ailments. However I don't think those words are really all that comforting. I would certianly try to find some way to help the greiving process along.

Instead I'm going to move the discussion forward as if you are simply going thru grief. If I'm reading your post correctly it almost seems that you are experiencing the loss of everything that is important to all at once. The silver lining here is that there are things that are important to you. Sure they are ephemral, but that's no excuse to not value those things now.

A particular aspect that you also mentioned a bit when you talked about your wife, is that other people really can't share the grieving time with you becuase you are going thru this alone, and only in perception, not reality. Maybe having a mock funeral will help you, in some way. Although it does seem kinda silly to me. It is something that I would consider if I was in your shoes.

Depression is also a perfectly valid response to grief. It is a healthy part of the grief cycle: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I think you will find acceptance in time.

If certain myths and religions might help the process, i'd recommend gilgamesh.

[tshort]

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I don't get that. Since God doesn't like those who are smug, hell is a very real possibility for anyone! Christians: You sin every day. You have sex out of wedlock. You don't honor your father and mother. You're going to covet your cousin's hot little wife tomorrow at the family Thanksgiving dinner! You don't observe the Sabbath day. You did not give a 3rd of your wealth to those more needy than yourself. Be afraid of hell... Be very afraid!

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Totally agree.

The vast majority of christians (or so they say claim) are incredibly dumb. Someone who knowingly commit sins as a believer in heaven and hell is a huge moron and should contemplate infinity for a while.