Quasi-Awesome Preflop Question

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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In this situation, as I interpret the description, I probably raise. There are times I call. There are very rare times I fold (usually a look-left tell).

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I still think raising here is terrible no matter how many respectable posters disagree with me. BTW Joe, I recently saw your videos. Keep up the good work. Very nice site.

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You are wrong. If Joe advocates raising, even if only slightly, it's a pretty easy raise.

Position with dead money and initiative against retards is a pretty sweet spot to be.

Certainly better than position against lots of players, including two good ones with no dead money and no initiative with a hand that easy for them to read because it's exactly what we are "supposed to" have.

I really don't know that one needs to go any further than that in order to know what the right play is.

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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I dont see it, and I never will.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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wanting to knock players out seems absurd to me.

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We only want to knock out the blinds who play well. We're not expecting the limpers to fold -- instead, we want to play a pot against them, in position, that has a lot of their chips in it for us to win. And if the blinds do call, fine -- we're still in position in a large multiway pot with a well-disguised hand.

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The fact that the blinds play well is meaningless. We have 76s. Were not drawing to top pair, we're drawing to a big hand. Each player who enters this pot adds more value to our hand, even those who play well becuz thats more people who have the golden opportunity of making a 2nd best hand against our monster.

If we had a hand like ATo,A8s,K9s,QTs, then your logic makes sense and these hands should be raised accordingly becuz now we have a hand that will make top pair a reasonable amount of time and having good players out of our pot is a great thing since now we can make a possible 2nd place hand. These hands should also be raised for pure value but getting the good players out is certainly a real benefit with these holdings.

And why the [censored] do we care about disguising our hand? We have two bad players at the table, we dont need to purchase deception here. Just make the boring optimal play and we'll get the money in the long run.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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Yeah I can see your point but IMO I think a preflop raise is gonna hurt our implied odds

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Absolutely. Raising here is basically shooting ourselves in the foot. We have a very profitable limp here against that lineup. By raising instead of calling and charging ourselves more money to see a flop we are ensuring that we dont make money in this situation. Our return in the raise preflop scenario is the same as calling but our initial cost has doubled making it difficult if not impossible to turn a profit with this highly speculative hand. Turning a profitable situation into an unprofitable one is not my idea of good poker.

[Josh W]

I don't want to put words in peoples mouths, but it surely looks to me like this question is divided amongst lines that have nothing to do with this hand. Those who think about poker, playing the players, and not just playing the cards, advocate raising. Those who think that only the cards matter advocate limping.

In this hand, a very solid 2+2er was in the SB and I was on the button. I limped, and afterwards I asked him about it. He thought limping was correct, and I still thinking raising is...but we both say it's close.

ILOVEPOKER929...I really hoping that you are using a lousy form of hyperbole when you say that
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Turning a profitable situation into an unprofitable one is not my idea of good poker.

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If you think that putting in 2 (or 3 or 4 or 182) bets preflop with an average hand (this hand is probably about the avg. limping hand that the two limpers would have), on the button, against two HORRIBLE postflop players is unprofitable, you are way wrong. In fact, if it's not profitable for your postflop abilities, you are definitely better off just mucking it preflop. Seriously and sincerely.

The way that I figure it is....if it's simply showdown poker (i.e. no postflop play), and it's me and the two limpers, I'll win about 30-35% of the time. If it's me, the two limpers, and the two blinds, I'll win about 20-25% of the time. These are simple, rough guesstimates.

Given that the limpers are both uberpassive, I won't be bluffed, and I'll have every opportunity to make my hand. Moreover, since I have position, I have a ton of postflop stealing/bluffing equity. Yes, they are very loose, but they are 40-80 players. They won't call with J9 on an A83 flop (though they will take one off with 44).

Meh, it's becoming more and more clear to me. If you have any postflop ability at all, this is a raise. If you just sit and wait until you make your hand, even on the button, you should probably muck, or maybe limp.

Josh

[Clarkmeister]

Josh,

I just like dead money and position on retards in raised pots.

[Josh W]

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Josh,

I just like dead money and position on retards in raised pots.

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Me too. Note that this means our cards don't matter!

[Joe Tall]

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In this situation, as I interpret the description, I probably raise. There are times I call. There are very rare times I fold (usually a look-left tell).

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I still think raising here is terrible no matter how many respectable posters disagree with me.

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It's not terrible. It's not bad. It's higher variance, true that. But it is certainly something you need to consider. Look at the spot we are in, it couldn't be more perfect. As you can see here, it's not the first time this has been brought up.

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BTW Joe, I recently saw your videos. Keep up the good work. Very nice site.

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Thank you very much, we work hard to put out a quality product. I appreciate the feedback!

[Bad Lobster]

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I still think raising here is terrible no matter how many respectable posters disagree with me...

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Position with dead money and initiative against retards is a pretty sweet spot to be.

Certainly better than position against lots of players, including two good ones with no dead money and no initiative with a hand that easy for them to read because it's exactly what we are "supposed to" have.

I really don't know that one needs to go any further than that in order to know what the right play is.

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In that case, the right play would be to usually call in that situation but occasionally raise to keep the opponents guessing...I don't think you have to do it too often.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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In this situation, as I interpret the description, I probably raise. There are times I call. There are very rare times I fold (usually a look-left tell).

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I still think raising here is terrible no matter how many respectable posters disagree with me.

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It's not terrible. It's not bad. It's higher variance, true that. But it is certainly something you need to consider. Look at the spot we are in, it couldn't be more perfect. As you can see here, it's not the first time this has been brought up.

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BTW Joe, I recently saw your videos. Keep up the good work. Very nice site.

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Thank you very much, we work hard to put out a quality product. I appreciate the feedback!

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The link you gave Joe is a really a totally different situation. I think raising 76s in that situation is just fine.

[Vehn]

I hate a raise here given your image. Hate it.