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#31
07-19-2007, 06:43 PM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
But when you get KK in the BB, would you rather have 20BB or 100BB? [/ QUOTE ] It depends on how good my opponents are Post flop. I surely don't expect on average to win more than 20BB with KK no matter what the stack sizes are, but I don't particularly like playing good opponents deepstacked OOP with an unimproved KK, but KK plays very simply with 20bb OOP. 
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#32
07-19-2007, 07:12 PM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] But when you get KK in the BB, would you rather have 20BB or 100BB? [/ QUOTE ] It depends on how good my opponents are Post flop. I surely don't expect on average to win more than 20BB with KK no matter what the stack sizes are, but I don't particularly like playing good opponents deepstacked OOP with an unimproved KK, but KK plays very simply with 20bb OOP. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed, the BB and SB have a positional advantage ONLY preflop - which is good. It seems to me that minimising my exposure to betting post flop when i am out of position is also good. Being short would reduce my post flop OOP disadvantage when playing from the SB and BB -- being all in after the flop totally negates position. Holding a mediocre hand i would be much happier being all-in post flop when short rather than when full. I am assuming that many villains are at least as good as me and so 'I' cannot consistently outplay them when OOP. Also, i think if i could choose my stack size, i would rather have most on the button, least UTG. The BB, SB are unique for pre/post advantage/disadvantage, so i would rather be short for the reasons outlined above.
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#33
07-20-2007, 07:05 AM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing 1/2. You pay 2 to play in th CO "blind" and you don't get to play the button. If you come in in the BB, then you pay 3 dollars to get to play in the BB, SB, button and CO. 1 more dollar than posting, but you get 3 more hands, 2 of them have crappy pos. but hey you're not forced to play them any further, and 1 you have awesome position. Seems clear to me that that is a better deal than posting in the CO. Posting in the CO is only if you are too impatient to wait for the BB or there is some kind of time consideration. [/ QUOTE ] You're comparing the wrong things. You are comparing one orbit of hands posting from the bb to one partial orbit of hands posting from the cutoff. You believe, probably correctly, the your expectation is higher from the BB, and hence you believe you should always post from the BB. Except...this is the wrong way to think about it. Whether you post from the cutoff or not, you are going to post from the BB when your turn comes. From that point on, everything is identical in both situation. The sole question therefore is whether you can post from the cutoff, and expect to make more than your $2 back between the cutoff and UTG positions. If you do, you are passing up +EV situations by waiting. How profitable the BB, SB and button positions are is 100% irrelevent.
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#34
07-20-2007, 07:13 AM
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Re: Posting Question
And that's a wrap.. vn response. So take a look at PT and sum your expectation from CO to UTG if it > 1.5BB then post.
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#35
07-20-2007, 07:31 AM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
And that's a wrap.. vn response. So take a look at PT and sum your expectation from CO to UTG if it > 1.5BB then post. [/ QUOTE ] Correction: > 1 BB.
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#36
07-20-2007, 09:01 AM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And that's a wrap.. vn response. So take a look at PT and sum your expectation from CO to UTG if it > 1.5BB then post. [/ QUOTE ] Correction: > 1 BB. [/ QUOTE ] 1 - .16 2 - .12 3 - .04 4 - .01 5 - .07 6 - .05 7 - .01 Sum - .46
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#37
07-20-2007, 09:57 AM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you are playing 1/2. You pay 2 to play in th CO "blind" and you don't get to play the button. If you come in in the BB, then you pay 3 dollars to get to play in the BB, SB, button and CO. 1 more dollar than posting, but you get 3 more hands, 2 of them have crappy pos. but hey you're not forced to play them any further, and 1 you have awesome position. Seems clear to me that that is a better deal than posting in the CO. Posting in the CO is only if you are too impatient to wait for the BB or there is some kind of time consideration. [/ QUOTE ] You're comparing the wrong things. You are comparing one orbit of hands posting from the bb to one partial orbit of hands posting from the cutoff. You believe, probably correctly, the your expectation is higher from the BB, and hence you believe you should always post from the BB. Except...this is the wrong way to think about it. Whether you post from the cutoff or not, you are going to post from the BB when your turn comes. From that point on, everything is identical in both situation. The sole question therefore is whether you can post from the cutoff, and expect to make more than your $2 back between the cutoff and UTG positions. If you do, you are passing up +EV situations by waiting. How profitable the BB, SB and button positions are is 100% irrelevent. [/ QUOTE ] I think I was trying to say that if you can post from the BB, this is better to do than to intentionally pass up posting in the BB and waiting to post in the CO. I see your point that if you miss the BB, posting in the CO is better than waiting, because you are saying that you will be +EV in your hands between the CO and UTG even if you have to play the CO blind and so this is better than waiting, where you are 0 EV. I can agree with this I suppose, though I usually am doing other things like setting up PT or looking for other tables to sit at and stuff and so i'm usually not just sitting there doing nothing.
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#38
07-20-2007, 01:00 PM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
But posting in 6-max is obviously bad. [/ QUOTE ] I used to think the same thing; now I realize that this is not true. (That is, it is not obvious that it is bad. I have no idea if it is actually bad or not.) Compare two orbits. This first is normal: post both blinds and play every position. The second is skip the blinds and the button, post in the CO, and play the other positions. These two scenarios are identical from the HJ on. However many positions there are (even if it is zero), they are the same in both cases. Therefore these other positions are irrelevant in deciding which scenario is better. Where they differ is in the blinds, button and CO. It is those we must compare to decide which is better. We should compare the expected losses from the blinds and the expected gains from the button and CO from a normal round to the expected losses from playing the CO as a poster. As I said, in limit I found that posting was better (though I admit that I only have about 3,000 hands where I posted in the CO, so my sample is a bit small.) I have essentially no data at NL. For others, posting is entirely about not sitting there watching hands go by, so for them, this analysis is likely uninteresting. They should post at full tables and wait at short tables. The difference in any case comes to less than half a big blind, and probably less than 1/5 a big blind, so I would not worry about it.
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#39
07-20-2007, 01:20 PM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] And that's a wrap.. vn response. So take a look at PT and sum your expectation from CO to UTG if it > 1.5BB then post. [/ QUOTE ] Correction: > 1 BB. [/ QUOTE ] 1 - .16 2 - .12 3 - .04 4 - .01 5 - .07 6 - .05 7 - .01 Sum - .46 [/ QUOTE ] If they are PTBB we need to double it === 0.92 at 50nl i have 0.66 = 1.32 bb = post it!! at 100nl i have 0.51 = 1.02 bb = post it!! at 200nl i have 0.03 = 0.06 bb = i suck!!
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#40
07-20-2007, 04:34 PM
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Re: Posting Question
[ QUOTE ]
You're comparing the wrong things. You are comparing one orbit of hands posting from the bb to one partial orbit of hands posting from the cutoff. You believe, probably correctly, the your expectation is higher from the BB, and hence you believe you should always post from the BB. Except...this is the wrong way to think about it. Whether you post from the cutoff or not, you are going to post from the BB when your turn comes. From that point on, everything is identical in both situation. The sole question therefore is whether you can post from the cutoff, and expect to make more than your $2 back between the cutoff and UTG positions. If you do, you are passing up +EV situations by waiting. How profitable the BB, SB and button positions are is 100% irrelevent. [/ QUOTE ] Very nice post, very logical and reasonable.
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