stud 8 hand

[myammy]

I haven't been playing very long, so if i really suck let me know. i have no significant reads.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.63 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (4.63 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls

5th Street - (6.31 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (6.31 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

River - (12.31 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (12.31 BB)

[Ray Zee]

i would have bet on fifth street for sure. this way you get your value plus if you miss the open pair will possibly check to you and you can make the right play then.

[Alchemist]

Isolating 6th street action:
Let's make a few assumptions.

There are 33 unseen cards.
4 cards will scoop (flush+ low)
13 cards give you half (flush OR low)
16 cards give you zippo

I think it's fair to assume catching another Jack or Ten will net you nothing.

If you call 6th:
o Seat 5 will still fold
o If you hit a good card they will check-call to you on the river, resulting in a final pot of 13.31BB. Otherwise check/fold.

If you raise 6th:
o Two opponents will just call (as played)
o If you hit a good card they will check-call to you on the river, resulting in a final pot of 15.31BB. Otherwise check/fold.

Results if you call:

EVcall = (4/33 x 13.31) + (13/33 x (13.31 / 2)) + (16/33 x -1)
EVcall = 3.75

If you raise:
EVraise= (4/33 x 15.31) + (13/33 x (15.31 / 2)) + (16/33 x -2)
EVraise = 3.90

I must admit prior to doing the calculations I would advocate just calling 6th, but assuming my calcs are correct (it's worth double-checking), it would appear a raise is the right choice.

[bigredlemon]

I'd say there's a good chance that if you call 6th, villain might bet again on the river, letting you raise the river.

[myammy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say there's a good chance that if you call 6th, villain might bet again on the river, letting you raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

then if i make my hand i can put a double bet in on the river with a lock for one direction right?

[Andy B]

I would have brought it in for the minimum and possibly raised on the backside. Some will tell you never to bring it in for a full bet, but no one has ever adequately explained why, in my opinion. The point remains, however, that many good players never, or at least rarely, bring it in for a full bet.

Definitely bet fifth. You should have the best low draw, and you've got a decent high shot. Judging by the action, your opponents likely have squat. Bet and hope they all fold. If they call, at least you're getting value.

I don't think I like the raise on sixth. You're still drawing, and you've only got one card to hit. I doubt that you've got much fold equity. Maaaaybe you've got more than 1/n equity, which would give your raise value, but if you do, it ain't by much. I prefer to call and hope.

I doubt a river bluff is going to work often enough to be worthwhile, so check it down.

[lucid75]

I don't like Andy B's raising the backside, it kind of gives away that you have either AA 5, 55 5, or 2c3c 5c. I prefer to bet 5th, but checking isn't atrocious. Taking the free one isn't so bad considering your only hi outs at that point are the gutshot outs/runner runner pair outs/club outs. Thinning the field will only give the remaining players better odds to call down. Wait till 6th, there are a lot of good cards to semibluff on.

[benneh]

some FT pro wrote an article on it, and while i was playing stud 8 with him on Full Tilt he actually table coached one of the fish at the table about it (goddamit wtf) and linked to his article.

i don't remember ALL the details, but what was there made sense. basically, you don't want to drive out action from marginal high hands and rough low draws when you bring it in for a full bet with a monster, and if you bring it in for a full bet with a marginal hand (except in tourney situations), you can be 2-bet raised for a full bet, whereas if you had just brought it in, you could only be raised for the remainder of the Bet minus the bring-in.

i think he also cited not being able to be read when playing live, since you can just bust out the bring-in without looking at your hole cards, which also helps keep track with what upcards are exposed etc.

i havn't brought in for full bets in a long while, but i never had a reason. that pro's article convinced me to not bother as well.

as for OP, i think he can afford to do this at that level, since no one's folding a 8(73) at 1/2 or 2/4

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I think what your calc misses involves the times you catch a scoop card and each opponent catches 2nd best high and low. Raising 6th might kill the action from both high and low opponents. Your flush draw is not so disguised when you raise 6th. In the long run, it may only represent a portion of a bet from each opponent, but that's enough to slant the EV towards calling 6th.

[Andy B]

I wouldn't raise on the backside every time, and I make that play with a lot of hands. My regular opponents would put me on a good hand, but not necessarily a monster.