200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)

[The Pokeratician]

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After thinking about this hand a lot, I think betting the turn is a must to prevent getting bluffed off our hand. Can't AS play perfectly against us? He can call PF with any PP to hit a set. Even when he misses the flop he can obviously bluff us off our hand. So basically we're never going broke unless we hit a set. So we have to play the hand in a way that prevents AS from bluffing us although he can still shove over our turn bet as a bluff. So when we stack off with just one pair we can only ever hope he's bluffing. Our hand is sort of a RIO hand IMHO.

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So anyone like Bet turn, fold to raise?

[ftball0000]

I bet-fold this turn and villian made nice bet on turn to make river a pot sized shove. Also J was pretty bad river card. Tough spot for our hero.

[czGLoRy]

the way he bet turn to make river shove a pot sized bet makes it look like he knew you had an overpair and would be convinced to calling the shove. Set here imo good fold

[RiverHebrew2]

good spot to c/rai on turn IMO becuz board gettin drawy. I think you can fold the river tho, but definitely c/rai on turn. Looks like on river he did hit backdoor clubs or JJJ or somethin or straight with 89s. You only beat stone bluff rel by this river because all the draws possible on turn hit, which will play like this deep. Besides, if you c/rai on turn, it will look a lot like a draw and you'll get action from like JJ and QQ while protecting ur hand. Very good fold on riv.

[TimberBee]

Okay, I don't feel terrible now... But does everybody agree that bet/fold turn or crai turn is a better alternative? Personally, I think I would have bet/fold'ed this turn, if I could play it again.

ASPoker8, care to share your hand? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Guess not, though...

[Lucky]

b/f turn is good if he views you as good tag. If he views you as quite laggy, then turn crai is ok.

But standard here imo should be b/f turn.

[bilbo-san]

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I think it's close but a fold....

I think you get shown AK rarely, and the rest of the time AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and TT... you're only ahead of QQ and AK and you tie w KK

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AS never has AK here IMHO.

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Why? From what I have seen he loves to float. AK is as good a hand as any to float with, because if you hit an A no one ever believes you called the flop with AK.

[BDaws]

I wouldn't CRAI on the turn because I think ASPoker8 folds almost everything that we beat. I would rather just c/c c/c instead of CRAI because he bluffs the river a non 0 percent of the time.

[bilbo-san]

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I wouldn't CRAI on the turn because I think ASPoker8 folds almost everything that we beat. I would rather just c/c c/c instead of CRAI because he bluffs the river a non 0 percent of the time.

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All we beat is a bluff, so "non-zero" isn't a high enough percentage to call the river.

The problem with hands like these when we are deep is that our hand is pretty face up to the player in position when we play like this (unless you start playing top set like this...).

That means if Villain is a good hand reader and is ballsy, you are going to be in spots like this a ton. So if you really are the type that routinely lays this down (and I am not saying you should or shouldn't), villain can bluff a pretty huge number of hands profitably here, AND get payed off with monsters, by simply value betting/bluffing the right mix.

Moving tables isn't a bad plan if you don't want to play this deep vs. villains like this. You can also get a lot more aggressive with all your hands (like c/ring the turn with bluffs and strong hands, not just monsters), but variance will go sky high when you do. You can also play tricky-trappy with monsters in the hopes of stacking him with one of these daring bluffs you suspect he is making, but if he shows up with a straight here against your flopped top set, you'll be pissed too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

All in all, a sticky situation.

[Matt Flynn]

visualize how the hand would play out with $200 stacks and a raise to $11 preflop. same world of [censored] when your opponent has a hand too and is aggressive. it gets worse with $400 because he knows your range is heavily skewed towards AA/KK/QQ/AK.

you may still be right to play it the way you did. it depends on how often you will take down the pot on the flop plus the times opponent checks the turn given that he called the preflop raise. you gain when that happens, so if he folds the flop or checks the turn often enough, it can make up for those times when you face a tough commitment decision that will usually result in you folding. however, the preflop reraise put you in a very bad situation for handling aggression.


if your opponent is thinking and thinks of you as tight, this is an awesome preflop call for the original raiser with weaker hands. when you have position and face a blinds reraiser with those stack sizes, if he doesn't hit better than one pair, you can put him to a tough commitment decision by firing all the way. in general you want to call the flop bet then jack the turn, because people get more spunky on the flop and the blinds reraiser is more likely to commit then. this a LAG tactic that works better if your opponents don't think of you as LAG. we cover how to think about these sorts of hands in detail in PNL volume 1.