Is religion harmful?

[NotReady]

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The universe maybe be irrational or non-rational, I DON"T KNOW and I don't think it's necessary to hold a strong opinion on that to function in this world.


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Hitler functioned. Cockroaches function. Unless you withdraw completely from making moral and logical judgments you have to think past that. Otherwise you are left with pragmatism, which is what I've said many times before is the only logical conclusion to non-theism.

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One point that you're missing is that just because these things make sense to humanity doesn't mean they make sense ultimately. Just because they make sense in a human society doesn't mean they would make sense for an alien society or for the entire universe.


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If you deny that there is ultimate purpose and meaning to or in or for the universe you can't save meaning for anything within the universe. Yes, you can maintain your life has meaning for you. And so we have 6 billion different concepts of meaning. That sounds like chaos to me. And how can you have significant communication on any important level with anyone else? The only way is to ignore your basic concept of meaninglessness and act as if there actually is purpose. Some of the existentialists, the high-priests of nihilism, engaged in radical social and political involvement. Most people can't really be consistent non-theists. As I said earlier, you have to be irrational and rational at the same time.

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Evolution provides more answers to me on the design question than theism does


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Though I seriously doubt evolution it doesn't preclude design.

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It is not yet a complete picture of how things have happened, but it is an extremely elegant mechanism


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If evolution is true and is elegant then it was designed.

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That is significant to me.


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Yes, and that's good. But you can't justify that significance in an ultimately meaningless universe.

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A logical reason for acting morally is because it would be better to live in a society where people behave morally instead of one where people do not behave morally.


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Of course it is, but why should you go along with it?

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But I don't hold a strong belief about where everything came from, or if there is an absolute in this universe.


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You may not formulate it that way but your beliefs about these things are strong in the sense that they make a fundamental difference in how you live.

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And what if God isn't ultimate Reason and the Creator of the universe? Then everything is meaningless? You remind me of Dostoevsky. Other philosophers have dealt with this objection


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Dos. was right. If God is dead all is permitted. I haven't seen an answer to that yet.

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I've previously stated in this thread that "I believe the world exists, I believe that some actions are better in certain situations than others (although I hesitate to call anything right or wrong)".


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Yes, but you haven't justified it. Why shouldn't I lie, steal and murder? Those actions may well be better for me in certain situations.

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Many philosophers have disagreed with this position. Don't act like the argument is settled.


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They may disagree but they haven't shown how to avoid nihilism on an atheistic worldview.

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Perhaps it is also the case that your God hasn't revealed himself to me. It is certainly a possibility, although one that I find remote.


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One thing I find helpful is to go outside on a clear, moonless night and look up.

[NotReady]

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We don't deny the possibility of miracles
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that thing will be accepted as a part of naturalism,


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I can't quite reconcile these two.

[NotReady]

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Theists suggest that a God frequenty contradicts logic to manipulate the universe towards events that would not happen in our rational expectations


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I don't think God contradicts pure logic but He certainly isn't bound by what we think are rational expectations.

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Who thinks it appears designed?


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Dawkins.

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Who thinks lives of men ultimately have significance?


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If you don't think so there's little left to discuss.

[NotReady]

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Something is rational if it meets our subjective standards for rationality. Something is logical if it satisfies our definitions of logical rigor. Something is moral if it coincides with our ethical intuitions.


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Wow. Plenty of people on this forum have stated what you do about morality but I can't recall anyone saying it about rationality and logic. Wow.

Does tend to prove my point though.

[luckyme]

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Yes, but you haven't justified it. Why shouldn't I lie, steal and murder? Those actions may well be better for me in certain situations.

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That's why the prisons are full of christians. Obviously many do think that way. oh, well, the good times are coming for them, seeing they buggered up this opportunity.

luckyme

[luckyme]

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You must believe that though there is no absolute standard for morality there is some evolutionarily selective reason for behaving morally...

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FYP.

There is nothing "absolute" about rationality, logic, or morality. Something is rational if it meets our subjective standards for rationality. Something is logical if it satisfies our definitions of logical rigor. Something is moral if it coincides with our ethical intuitions.

Of course, our standards for rationality, our definitions of logical rigor, and our moral intuitions are all derived from thousands of years of human interaction with reality. So in a way, I guess this is as "absolute" a source of truth as one can imagine.

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you're getting WAY ahead of NR with this. He tells there's no reason he wouldn't be a pyschopath if evolution is true, now you want him to realize that logic and rationality are on the table too.

That's way cruel, luckyme

[NotReady]

That's why the prisons are full of parolee hopefuls

FYP

[Subfallen]

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Something is rational if it meets our subjective standards for rationality. Something is logical if it satisfies our definitions of logical rigor. Something is moral if it coincides with our ethical intuitions.


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Wow. Plenty of people on this forum have stated what you do about morality but I can't recall anyone saying it about rationality and logic. Wow.

Does tend to prove my point though.

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Which of your points are you saying this proves?

Anyways, I'm just stating the obvious: morality, reason, logic are all meaningless except through their relation to human consciousness. Attempt to define a morality for earthworms or a logic for small boulders or a rational schema for shades of purple...you get the point.

[Subfallen]

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That is significant to me.

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Yes, and that's good. But you can't justify that significance in an ultimately meaningless universe.

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Existential meaning does not need logical justification; it only needs subjective justification.

There is nothing else. If I experience my life as meaningful, then it is meaningful in the only sense that matters...or makes sense.

[NotReady]

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Which of your points are you saying this proves?


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That without God there is no meaning.

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Attempt to define a morality for earthworms or a logic for
small boulders or a rational schema for shades of purple...you get the point.


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Morality doesn't apply to non-sentients. But I assure you there is nothing so small that is excluded from God's plan. "All the hairs of your head are numbered".