Evaluating Sites/Levels/Games and Tables.

[cpk]

First, if you are raising hands for value on the button, the more the merrier.

Second, I'm OK doky with tight passives to my left. Really, that's the best of both worlds--you can limp in front of them, and you can rob their blinds all day without getting trapped.

Intentionally putting tight aggressives to your left is--frankly--stupid. I suspect the only reason bisonbison gets away with it is that his overall game selection is so good that he rarely gets punished. For maximum profit, it's best to avoid games with TAs altogether, but some games are still pretty good even with a couple TAs. You want them on your right.

Generally, here's what I want.

To my left: Passives, sLAs who telegraph (doesn't apply online), people who play extremely poorly postflop, compulsive checkraisers.

To my right: All other aggressives, people who play extremely well postflop, people with lots of money.

As far away as possible (ie, across the table): Total maniacs, because I can use them to control the betting regardless of where the button is.

Otherwise, it just doesn't matter. Can you see why?

This approach has helped me beat the game fairly well for 5 years. I just do not see bisonbison's approach as helpful in any of its meaningful points, and many of his ideas in this piece are actually harmful because they ignore the most important issue concerning marginal hands--marginal hands need high implied odds, and having aggressive players to your left jeopardizes that.

[Onaflag]

Here's what I think (which doesn't matter because I admittedly suck). As a noob, I have thought about this thread all friggin night trying to give Bison the upper edge because, hey, he's Bison.

At first, I'm thinking, great, another stupid thing I do that needs to be fixed. Select seats better and I'll increase my winnings. Something didn't click, however, so I ran through several scenarios and decided that if Bison's advice was correct, then I truly have no idea how to play poker. I want TAG on my right and Mr. Fish on my left. Do I need to explain why? I think not.

Then I read all of CPK's replies and think, whoa, wait a minute. Why are 2+2ers not siding with him? Because he's not Bison? Wait! Maybe it is Bison playing a joke on everybody. But its not April 1st, so I discount that theory.

WTF!? Unless there is something an idiot like myself is missing, CPK gets my vote for reply of the month! Convince me otherwise, but, come on! How in God's name can deliberately placing a TAG on your left and a fish on your right possibly help?

Bison, you have truly screwed up my night and I can only hope for a more detailed explanation because your advice goes against everything we've been taught. I want to know what TAG is going to do BEFORE I make a play on Fish. What the Hell am I missing (besides brains).

Onaflag.............

[buzzbait]

I like this post and found it helpful, thanks.
I think the point those that want the TA players on their right are missing is that when the TA is on your left the frequency of him raising a limp by you is so rare due to how infrequently you limp at the same time he has a hand to raise. If you limp 10% of the time (assuming 18/8 player) and he raises 8% of the time, this means he is raising less than 1 out of 10 of your limps and this situation is occurring 1 in every 125 hands (1/10 * 1/12.5). The situation where you would be able to raise 3 LP limpers in front of you for value if they are on your right would occur more frequently and is of more value to you than what you lose the rare time the TA raises a hand you happen to limp on.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I think it's scary how firmly you state your case and provide some very dangerous advice for people who don't know better, because your case sounds okay on the surface.

To my right: All other aggressives, people who play extremely well postflop, people with lots of money.

Since they are tight, often it will be folded or raised to you. Since they are to your right they will often be in EP. Well, you are going to be folding most hands when they raise. When it is folded to you, you are in the situation of open-raising or folding. If you have made it so the people to your left are really loose, you can only really open-raise with legitimate hands and have to fold most of everything else, since they will be calling two cold and you can't take a shot at the blinds with weak hands anymore. Whenever you do play, you will often be essentially in EP. The tighties fold to you, the loose players all limp in, and your absolute position will often be terrible those times you are in EP and MP.

If you have tight to your left and loose to your right, you will be able to play many more hands because you will be able to see a multiway pot forming and be able to play hands like suited connectors and whatnot. Ocassionally, someone to your left will raise, but at least you have a multiway pot to make up for it. And the chances of you and a tight person being involved in the same pot are lessened since you are both tight.

You are often going to come in for a raise, and since you put tight players on your left, they will almost always fold to your raise. So now you always have position on the loose players, AND will improve your position or buy the button. And those times that you limp, since they are tight, your position improves often dramatically anyway, since they will often all fold. It is a rare event that you get 3-bet since there are so few legitmate 3-betting hands, plus we need the parlay that you get a raising hand AND the opponent gets a 3-betting hand. It just doesn't happen often enough for it to be a huge concern.

Finally, sometimes you will get one really weak limper to you, and you can start making raises with marginal hands to isolate the limper. It is much easier to isolate with tight players to your left.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have made it so the people to your left are really loose, you can only really open-raise with legitimate hands and have to fold most of everything else, since they will be calling two cold and you can't take a shot at the blinds with weak hands anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

But assuming the loose players to my left aren't very aggressive, having them to my left means they will coldcall my legitimate raises with crap and limp after my limping hands.




[ QUOTE ]
Whenever you do play, you will often be essentially in EP. The tighties fold to you, the loose players all limp in, and your absolute position will often be terrible those times you are in EP and MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a problem with being in a position where I already know whether the tight players are going to be in the pot or not, and I'm going to have loose (but not aggressive) players after me who won't punish me for limping with drawing hands.

Although I think that Bison has made some interesting and thought-provoking points, I believe that the issue is a bit more complicated and less straight-forward than he presents.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Intentionally putting tight aggressives to your left is--frankly--stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having a tight aggressive player to your left is probably better than having a random player to your left at a full table, all else being equal.

The tight aggressive will not be enterring too many pots - he's *tight* after all - which means that you can do things like buy the Button with some impunity. It's true that a talented player will take better advantage of his position than an untalented player, but for the most part, you will stay out of one another's way - if you're playing 1/6 of your hands and he's playing 1/6 of his hands then you'll be involved in a hand together only 1/36 of the time. If the table gets down to 6-handed or so, then the TAG is going to loosen up a bit and that can be problematic, but any sort of conspicuously *tight* opponent, whether loose or aggressive, is a friend to your left at a full game.

It's the *loose* aggressive players that it's essential to have to your right.

[Derek in NYC]

A few thoughts on your criteria.

First, while I have done so in a B&M club, I have never made a table selection decision online based on relative position. Fact is, it is hard enough finding a decent table with more fish than sharks, I can't be too picky about my relative seat position if I can get on a good table. Additionally, whether you sit to the right or left of a TAG/LAG/LP whatever isn't going to determine whether you are going to win or lose... you just need to use different skills such as reraising to isolate, checkraising the field for value, etc. I personally think that learning how to use these skills is key to improving your game. If one's profitability turns on having ideal relative position, I propose that such a player's game is a crippled, mechanical game that won't be able to grow into higher limits.

One factor that I personally consider important, but that wasn't mentioned in your list, is stack size. Setting aside the sharks/fish ratio, I consider it highly desirable when all players have at least 15-20 BBs in front of them. (Obviously this is better when the fish have huge stacks, but it is generally applicable.) Deeper stacks means more stable opponents, which means better reads over the course of a session. Deeper stacks also means more stable tables that dont break down into shorthanded sessions. I will generally avoid sitting if more than 3 players have microstacks.

Absent buttons. Since Im sitting down at a full ring, obviously the presence of absent buttons is a negative. The blinds circulate faster, and I'm forced to play a game where I have less of an edge. So I won't sit if there are 2 or more absent buttons. Another reason I will avoid these tables is that in my experience they tend to be unstable. At around 3-4 absents, a table completely breaks down and people stop autoposting blinds. Next thing you know, you're heads up. In fact, as a table starts to empty out or go absent, I will unclick autopost and make each blind posting decision individually.

As you can see, a lot of my factors involve table stability. I hinted at the reason for this, but I'll be explicit. Stable tables give you good reads. You have a solid pokertracker dataset for everyone at the table, and you can maximize your edge as a skilled player. Where the table is unstable, and people are popping in and out (short stacks, absent buttons, etc.), you are forced to play a much more mechanical game. Harder to defend blinds, harder to 3-bet for isolation, harder to induce bluffs, etc. Overall, I think table stability is very important to a profitable session.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I also forgot to mention that having aggressive players to your left tends to put you in situations where you have excellent relative position postflop.

[donkeyradish]

I was going to post a question (outside of this thread), which was to be along the lines of "how do you find your limit"?. I've been playing at several different limits and not really settled on one.

But perhaps I was about to ask the wrong question entirely. There are good players and there are bad players at all the limits. I've played at some $1/$2 tables where I've been hammered all night. And in $10/$20 games where people seemed to throw money at me.

So I should probably only ever worry about how to find a good seat. And learn to stand up when its not so good.

[gchaos]

Leave it to yet another noob to question this, but is this really practical? If I am sitting at a good table (3 or more bad players), do I really care about where I am sitting? Perhap I am naive when I answer this myself with a a resounding NO. Am I willing to leave this table and wait for the best seat to open up? No. If I am on a waiting list for a juicy table and a spot opens up, should I decline it because the other players are not sitting where I'd like them? No.

I am really curious if people on this forum ACTUALLY do this because I just do not see it (admittedly, I never thought I could 4 table either).

Perhaps I have missed the point completely. Maybe bison was just throwing some the theoretical advice out there for discussion. Maybe this seems impractical for me because I only have a couple of hours each day to play online.

Dazed and confused....