High Stakes Poker thread (11/5 - 500k buyin - Spoilers expected)

[aislephive]

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Doyle's fold is bad, period.

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How about this for an idea:
Let's say that Doyle is brilliant and that after betting $25K into a $20K flop he did not believe that Jamie's raise to $125K + the way Jamie was behaving = anything other than QsXs, JsXs or 9sXs. If this was Doyle's read then it turns out he was absolutely correct, and his fold was 100% the correct move. It would seem unlikely that Jamie put Doyle on having a flush and he definitely thought he had the best hand.

Between the 2 players it seems that Jamie's ability to read Doyle is very poor and Doyle's ability to read Jamie is very good and yet a bunch of idiots on this thread criticize Doyle for how he played that hand.

Everyone that said that Jamie could have had 2 pair, trips or a straight the way he was acting were wrong, we know this because we saw the holecards. Doyle from Jamie's behaviour thought he was VERY strong (as in a flush and not a little baby one), we know he was correct. Since Jamie had a hand in the range that Doyle thought he had then Doyle was correct in his read. Since Doyle did not KNOW the EXACT 2 cards in Jamie's hand he is human, but it does not mean that he played it badly.

This Doyle bashing by the idiots is completely results based, if Jamie had been holding Qs7S then no one would say that Doyle played it badly.

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Against a good player, I think Doyle's fold is just fine. Against Jamie, who has shown time and time again he doesn't understand relative hand values, it is a bad fold. For the record, I agree that Doyle made a very good read on Jamie. I'm not denying that. He knew Jamie had a hand that he was very comfortable with and probably regarded as the nuts. With a good player, their range in this situation is going to be purely nut or second nut hands, or a bluff. They would not make a massive turn raise with a 9 high flush 400bbs deep against an extremely solid player. Again, Doyle made a good read, but despite his read that Jamie was strong, he was still correct to call or reraise with his flush.

The ending sentence in your first paragraph is preciesly making my point for me. Jamie doesn't figure that Doyle has a flush, therefore Jamie is going to be playing every flush identically. He isn't taking into account that if he plays a million dollar unraised pot with Doyle with a 9 high flush, he is never going to be ahead.

Of course if Jamie actually had a better flush, everybody here would have been saying how sick his fold was. I would have given him props, but I still would disagree with the fold.

My point is that despite Doyle's great read, he folded for the wrong reasons.

[cpitt398]

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I like to comment on something that WAS unusual though.
None can deny that Antonio played the AA hand against Barry like a retard.
Some people in this thread tried to explain it as playing with scared money etc.
More likely is that his strategy for this session was to stay away from confrontations with the better players at the table and focus more on Jamie and especially Guy.
But even if you consider that he still played the hand horribly.

So I`m gonna point out something that was probably overlooked.
Antonio played on every HSP season so far and IIRC every time he had AA he lost big pots with them.
I don`t know how superstitious he is but he might have thought: "Here we go again..."
It`s a long shot I know but I also do know that many live pros are affected by superstition to the point that it screws up their game from time to time.



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From Antonio himself (http://alwaysbluff.com/poker/blogs/b...oker-season-4/)

Recently I played a hand on High Stakes Poker that, more than any other hand for me illustrates the difference between big and small stack poker. It makes a world of a difference when you have an abundant amount of chips in front of you and so does your opponent. You never want to risk your entire stack, especially in a cash game, unless you pretty much have the nuts. A very interesting hand recently came up on High Stakes Poker that I would like to discuss.

The game had a 500k buy in; yes, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS just to sit down, no limit holdem. That’s a lot of cheese so of course so I will be playing very carefully. I had aces in the one hole and decided to limp. There was a lot of raising going on and I wanted to put in the reraise and just get it over with before the flop, but ultimately no one did raise. I hate aces in a multi-way pot especially when everyone is super deep. More big pots are lost with Aces in my opinion than any other hand. A few limpers, no raise, flop comes A 4 8, all spades. Berry Greenstein, a very good player whose game I respect tremendously, leads right out. For him to lead out into multiple players tells me he, for sure, has a hand. There is no way in the world he is bluffing. He might be betting with the king of spades, but that is highly unlikely. It was just obvious he had something. I cannot raise here because there are players behind me and I certainly wouldn’t want to get reraised and possibly have to throw my hand away, so I call. Everyone folds (which I don’t mind btw). The turn, I think, was a red queen. I haven’t seen the show yet so I am going off of memory, though the card was insignificant. He leads again. Here is where it gets interesting. He led on the flop, I called and now he is leading right out into me again. Now I am 100% sure he has a hand. He either has a flush, two pair or a smaller set. That’s it. He can’t have anything else. If he has a flush then I certainly don’t want to raise. If he has 2 pair, raising is not the best move either because he will more than likely realize that his hand is no good and muck. Remember Barry is a wizard. He would know his hand was no good here. The only thing that I would hope for would be for him to have a smaller set and even then if I do raise and he calls, if and when the board doesn’t pair, he will probably not pay off the river anyway. So with all that said I think calling was, in fact, the best option. The river brought a red king. He led again. At this point I didn’t think he had the 2 pair. If he had a 2 pair it would be any variation of the flop 2 pair…I didn’t think he had this hand because I was early position limper here I could easily have had the A Q or the A K. It was either a set or the flush and I thought the flush was way more likely than the set, although his bet on the river was more on the weak side I still saw no benefit in raising here. If I raise the river for sure 100 % he mucks. So with all those factors considered I think I played the hand correctly. If I thought there was any chance of a call on the river a value raise would have been correct and against your average player I might have done so, but against a wizard I see no value. I made the call and a crying one at that (I really did put him on the flush) and he showed me the 8 -4 for a two pair.

Maybe one day I will learn this game.

Antonio

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i wouldn't think limp reraising Aces this deep would be advisable. If you make it obvious what you have someone may call just to take you off of it

[Jeffffff]

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Remember, he had to make a deal just to put up a measly 10k to enter the main event. Im not saying he was poor before the win, but to say he is a millionare and then have to sell half urself for 10k doesnt compute.



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I don't think you have it right. I don't think Jamie went looking to make a deal to get into the tournament.

I think the story was he was in Vegas to play in the Main Event when the Bodog rep runs into him and says. "Get some of your stars to wear my gear and you can play my seat." Jamie says o.k. and makes a few phone calls.

Agreeing to take a 10k seat doesn't mean he could not have bought in on his own. Or was out soliciting investors.

And we all know there was an argument over whether the deal was take my seat OR play my seat and give me half.

[john voight]

you guys don't understand how wealth works.
its not how much cash he has. its all his liabilities and assets added up.

he could be making 500k+ a year from stocks.
he could have a house that is 100% paid off.
He could have a business that generates money.
he could be endorsed by companies.

bottom line is: he could go busto cashwise (if his BR is 500k), but if he is back to even (500k) w/ in a month or two from certain cash flows he may have, it dosnt really matter.

[pendragon]

I think the funny thing about all these people jumping over themselves to defend Doyle's fold, is that Doyle himself would probably be reluctant to defend it.

Now I agree that Doyle's move is very understandable considering the deep stacks, it's not some horrible move of course, it's easy to understand. But certainly the amount of money influenced him; at 1/10th the stack and bet sizes he's not folding there, I hope we can all agree.

But Doyle himself probably doesn't like his own play there. And not just in terms of knowing the hands after-the-fact - from the expression on his face he was probably having big 2nd thoughts right after making it.

There are lot of of result-based "wrong" moves that Doyle would do over and over again in the same spot without questioning himself, but I don't think this was one of them. He'd probably like this one back.

[Micro Donk]

its unreal how many people think doyle is scared money...

[jjshabado]

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I think the funny thing about all these people jumping over themselves to defend Doyle's fold, is that Doyle himself would probably be reluctant to defend it.

Now I agree that Doyle's move is very understandable considering the deep stacks, it's not some horrible move of course, it's easy to understand. But certainly the amount of money influenced him; at 1/10th the stack and bet sizes he's not folding there, I hope we can all agree.

But Doyle himself probably doesn't like his own play there. And not just in terms of knowing the hands after-the-fact - from the expression on his face he was probably having big 2nd thoughts right after making it.

There are lot of of result-based "wrong" moves that Doyle would do over and over again in the same spot without questioning himself, but I don't think this was one of them. He'd probably like this
one back.

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We'll probably never know, but I doubt it. His thought processes was solid, his reasoning was solid, his read was solid. Its just one of those hands.

[Cincy_Kid_ES]

Funny no one ever really seemed to bring this up. Does anyone think the table is silently colluding together?

Honestly, I think that the two big fish everyone is gunning for is mainly Gold and Liliberte. Of course, everyone wants to win and watch out for themselves, but no one is going to gun for Brunson or Barry with 72 like Benyamine did to Gold. Everyone besides Liliberte and Gold are the real pros, and they aren't gonna let those two out of the game alive if they have anything to do with it. This is the key reason why I believe Esfariandi was so hesitant to call Greeinstein. He knows that they aren't going to make plays at each other unless they have a hand.

As far as the Doyle-Gold hand is concerned. Everyone says Doyle folded cause he wasn't sure if he had the best flush or not (which may be partly true) - but how about the fact that he wanted to give Gold a lil taste of blood. Brunson will treat Gold like a wolf hunter in the arctic region by freezing blood on a knife. The hunters let the wolves think they are getting a nice treat until they wind up licking so ferociously that they cut the inside of their mouths and bleed out.

No - I am not saying these players made a verbal agreement, but I feel it is somewhat an unwritten rule that the pros don't gun for the pros when there are well-financed fish at the table. Just like cops don't give cops tickets, you don't need to say it to know that the rule is out there. Just my take on the whole issue - would be interested to see what others have to say.

[Micro Donk]

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Funny no one ever really seemed to bring this up. Does anyone think the table is silently colluding together?

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stop reading there

-ed left out intentionally, pleading with everyone else

[JokersAttack]

[x] live poker is rigged