The Rivalry

[Victor]

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i knew this would turn into a SEC v. all others debate.

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like every college football thread.

[MyTurn2Raise]

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BTW- Michigan fans- do you "root for the conference" to do well, including rooting for Ohio State fans? I've noticed a lot of lame Ohio State fans starting to root for you guys on out of conference games and it pisses me off to no end. I would rather Michigan lose every game than root for them. However, I actually tend to pull for Michigan against Notre Dame. When we were watching the Appy State game, about 3/4 of the bar was rooting against Michigan, and about 1/4 was rooting for them (all OSU fans). Lame. I hope you guys root against us too.

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It's weird. I want you to be 11-0 when we play to build up the significance, but I also want you to lose every individual game. Unless you're playing Notre Dame...I root for everyone over the Irish, mostly b/c of NDNation.

That conference thing is weird though. I'd bet it's a newer thing based on the Internet (and hence many more debates about whose conference is better) and the BCS/MNC mattering more since, as you pointed out, caring about national titles is very new. The 97 Michigan team's goal was the Big Ten Title and the Rose Bowl, for example. But I almost always root for everyone in the B10 in bowl games, including OSU. It feels dirty but that's what it's come to.

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to follow along on a few things

yep...I can never remember any big11ten fanbase having national title as the goal for football until very recent times

it was always going to the RoseBowl

the rest of the nation just didn't matter

must national title contenders were considered to come out of weak ass conferences were they couldn't be challenged week-in and week-out like in the Big11Ten

funny how know that the Big11Ten is weaker, the goals have shifted somewhat....
I'm not sure it's for the better

most older big11ten fans would still prefer the Rose Bowl over everything else





onto another topic,
I'm closely connected to the one school that has quite a reputation for having fans that don't pull for the conference or other teams in the conference. The sentiment is dying somewhat, but it's mainly due to the conference completely bending us over and [censored] us

there was the ridiculous late 60s slush scandal enforcement by the conference

the postseason probation over a QB suing the conference for a medical redshirt year

other local teams conspiring to do the 89-90 NCAA investigation for basketball

and the one-sidedness in 'breaks' against some of the conference favored cows

Alot of the old-timers still hate the conference with a passion---a small minority wished the school left it a long time ago



thus, I find it very hard to root for any of the other schools---it's like cheering for the school bullies and aholes because they are fighting another school---HELL NO

[damaniac]

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onto another topic,
I'm closely connected to the one school that has quite a reputation for having fans that don't pull for the conference or other teams in the conference. The sentiment is dying somewhat, but it's mainly due to the conference completely bending us over and [censored] us

there was the ridiculous late 60s slush scandal enforcement by the conference

the postseason probation over a QB suing the conference for a medical redshirt year

other local teams conspiring to do the 89-90 NCAA investigation for basketball

and the one-sidedness in 'breaks' against some of the conference favored cows

Alot of the old-timers still hate the conference with a passion---a small minority wished the school left it a long time ago


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Occam's Razor: If your team sucks for a long period of time, is it more likely to be the result of poor management/decisions/location/etc, or a vast conspiracy? Actually, real question: what is your explanation of the probation during/after the Mike White era in the 80's? Like what was the school accused of and why in your opinion was it wrong?

[JaredL]

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Ah, great football rivalries...

How about El Clásico, the two annual matches between Real Madrid and Barcelona? More than a football match, it represents the deep political and cultural divide between the Castile region of Madrid and the fiercely independent Catalonia region of Barcelona. Real Madrid; conservative, centralist, the establishment club. Barcelona; liberal, independent, flamboyant. For Catalans, Real Madrid symbolized Franco's dictatorship, and the match was seen as a venue to vent their resentment of Franco's oppression of Catalonia. The hostility still lingers 30 years after Franco's death, and makes for one of the most passionate rivalries in any sports.

Or how about the granddaddy of them all? Old Firm, the rivalry between Scottish mainstays Rangers and Celtic, both based in Glasgow. The first match was played way back in 1888, and has since been perhaps the most heated rivalry in football, infused with religious (catholic vs. protestant) and political (loyalist vs. republican) disputes.

On a more general note, I think a rivalry needs to be fueled by some kind of political, cultural, religious or socio-economic divide between the followers of each team for it to be considered a truly great rivalry.

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I bet the Israeli Palestinian soccer matches are a downright hoot.

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You're joking surely but they don't play.

Israel is in the UEFA (Union of European Football Associations) because the Arab clubs in the Asian Football Confederation refuse to play them. It'll be quite interesting if they ever qualify for the World Cup finals and are put into a group with Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[TomCollins]

Is this documentary a single 1 hour show or a series? I thought I heard it was a series leading up to the game, but it looks like its only 1 hour. Is this correct?

[jgunnip]

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Is this documentary a single 1 hour show or a series? I thought I heard it was a series leading up to the game, but it looks like its only 1 hour. Is this correct?

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Yep, one hour.

[MyTurn2Raise]

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onto another topic,
I'm closely connected to the one school that has quite a reputation for having fans that don't pull for the conference or other teams in the conference. The sentiment is dying somewhat, but it's mainly due to the conference completely bending us over and [censored] us

there was the ridiculous late 60s slush scandal enforcement by the conference

the postseason probation over a QB suing the conference for a medical redshirt year

other local teams conspiring to do the 89-90 NCAA investigation for basketball

and the one-sidedness in 'breaks' against some of the conference favored cows

Alot of the old-timers still hate the conference with a passion---a small minority wished the school left it a long time ago


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Occam's Razor: If your team sucks for a long period of time, is it more likely to be the result of poor management/decisions/location/etc, or a vast conspiracy? Actually, real question: what is your explanation of the probation during/after the Mike White era in the 80's? Like what was the school accused of and why in your opinion was it wrong?

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LOL....you think I'm making things up and putting conjecture/conspiracy into this.
That isn't what is going on.
I'm just reporting the facts.
Keep in mind that the Illinois athletics program looked pretty good, not great, on the whole until the 'slush fund' scandal of the late 60s.
Time magazine on slush fund
Why Illinois Cannot Cheat--Part I
the results to the basketball team
the story on the Deon Thomas incident

notice Bobby Knight of Indiana outright falsely accusing Illinois

notice Iowa and Bruce Pearl making false accusations

then, of course, Bobby's little cockholder, Digger Phelps, gets involved and his player LaPhonso Ellis makes outright fradualant claims

as the saying goes around here, "Illinois found innocent... punished anyway"


onto the two Mike White issues

the first was the BigTen not allowing Illinois a postseason bowlgame for one season because Dave Wilson, Illinois QB, sued the conference due to the denial of a medical redshirt year he wanted when he was injured on the second play of a season in JC.

the second from the NCAA that forced White out was due to the recruitment of Hart Lee Dykes
An Illinois assistant game Dykes $100 to set him up at one of the local hotels for a night to try and keep him on lockdown for national signing day. Dykes received thousands and a car from other schools and is the only player I know of to result in 3 different schools on probation. Yes, Illinois screwed up here. (Screwed up in a big way if they thought $100 could recruit a guy receiving thousands and a car from the other suitors.) Two other real violations were shown when Illinois assistants bought clothing for two guys on a recruiting visit who should up from JCs in California in flip flops and shorts to Illinois in January (true story---some actual life stuff is too funny). However, the past of Illinois was used to make this a 'major' violation. Plus, there was a whole smattering of folks upset at Illinois for their use of JC players and shaking up the Big11Ten power structure. The prolonged investigation (3 years... to find a $100 payment...WTF) resulted in difficulties for Mike White recruiting and hurt his chance to keep Illinois at the top, which looked highly possible in 83-85 area. FFS, Illinois was stuck with Brian Menkhausen at QB one year....yuck!

The Mike White era came up recently on insideillini.com and tends to come up every few months. The very first response sums up the general attitude of Illinois fans who went to games in the Mike White era, "Briefly, he had the audacity to beat Bo Schembechler. There was a heavy price to pay for that back in the day."


A good source for alot of this info is Undue Process: the NCAA's Injustice For All by Don Yaegar


I wish this all wasn't true

I think you can understand why I hate most of the other local universities... one who has the ability to reason would be hard pressed to like any of them

it's funny that Illinois has had the 'sleeping superpower' mantra quite a bit for both football and basketball. It is THE state university for one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. One of the largest reasons for the lack of success has been the contentious relationship with the conference and the NCAA.

[jah7_fsu1]

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IMO college football rivalries are way overhyped. Navy fans rushed the field after giving the Irish their 8th loss on the season. Sweet. Army-Navy routinely suck yet they put that trash on NBC? No thanks. UM and OSU are power college football programs, but to me that's just another regular season game, unless they meet in the NC game. I don't mind UM, but OSU fans are beyond annoying, especially considering it ISNT EVEN A PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM. For some reason, I object to claiming an amateur athletic competition as being "The Rivalry".

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Most of this has been said in some way or another, but I'll chime in late.

I think college rivalries are almost the only ones left. How many good sports rivalries in pro sports do we really have? Boston-NY obviously, but what else. I'm a Chiefs homer, and Chiefs-Raiders isn't even a rivalry really anymore. With free agency the people you are supposed to hate end up playing with you in a few years. Hated Donnie Edwards because he was a Charger, and now he's a Chief. College is so much more passionate because the players playing for OSU aren't likely to be playing for Michigan in the future. Interstate rivalries are always a blast (haven't missed a KU-KSU game in a long while, tickets for freaking Iowa State Iowa were through the roof, etc.)

We have a few rivalries from time to time in pro sports, but they are often only for a few years at a time (NE-Indy wasn't a rivalry for a long time, and it won't be once one of them goes to the crapper). College football will always have its rivalry games and they may be over-hyped, but I'll take it over the majority of professional "rivalries" anyday. The amateur aspect is part of what makes it so appealing to me.

[DVaut1]

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The thing about this, vs. say Notre Dame or MSU, is that winning vs. OSU is the best feeling (sans National Title). However, as much as losing sucks, I think losing to MSU or ND is worse than losing to OSU. We hate the Buckeyes and all but they're a legitimately great program. MSU is not, like losing to your little brother. ND is a great program, but they're evil incarnate.

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I can't believe I just found this thread.

Anwyay I agree with this.

In the Michigan fandom world, losing to Notre Dame and MSU is in some ways 'worse' than losing to OSU, and it has nothing to do with the 'depth' of the emotions or whatever. I think every Michigan fan agrees that the Michigan/OSU rivalry is by far the most emotional -- and while Michigan faithful have a spirited and strong hatred for OSU, losing to them has never inspired a sense of shame like some losses to an overmatched Willingham-coached ND team or crappy MSU team inspires. IMO, the typical Michigan fan has a weird mix of hatred/respect for OSU that produces strange emotions after a loss, which doesn't equate to the shame produced by the loss to some of our other rivals.

[DVaut1]

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Agree, TC. Best friggin' week of the year. I'm totally useless at school (and hopefully starting next year at work).

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In 2001, when everything was "pushed back a week" due to the cancellation of games because of the 9/11 attacks, the Michigan/OSU game was the Saturday AFTER Thanksgiving. I skipped all my classes Monday - Wednesday because my housemates and I chose instead to watch tapes of old UM/OSU games. I went home to have Thanksgiving with my family Wednesday night, then came back to campus Friday to start tailgaiting. We lost the game (remember Jermaine Gonzalez? Yeah we lined him up at QB because Navarre was performing so badly. That's all you need to know about that game and the 2001 season as a whole) and the weather was rainy and awful, but I still consider the entire week a great memory. That week is the similarly emotional/fun/exciting every season, whether the game is home or away. Just an incredible experience.

If I knew people who were coming out of town to experience Michigan/OSU at the Big House, I'd tell them to get to Ann Arbor on Monday to see it all. I'm sure the same applies when the game is in Columbus.