Joe Torre = Dodgers manager - Page 9

mo42nyy · #81 11-01-2007, 07:10 AM

harder as in harder to execute successfully yes
harder as in more wear and tear- since they lowered the mound no

What time period was the reasearch done for?
DO you honestly telling me that curt schilling in his prime is just as likely to get tired as every other pitcher in baseball after 110 pitches?

CardSharpCook · #82 11-01-2007, 07:38 AM

Vyse, you are correct that it is harder to get today's atheletes out than 1960 atheltes. However the difference is nowhere near as great as you seem to think. It is still a wood bat and a round ball. If you wanted to make a comparison btwn 2007 and 1892, I'd allow you to call it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYY harder today. In 1892, you threw strikes until the other team has 2 guys on, and then you actually try to get the guy out. In 1960, as in 2007, you try to strikeout the batter everytime. Increased bat speed will make it slightly harder, as will the increase in the genetic talent pool. However, that doesn't change pitcher fatigue. If you're throwing your hardest on every pitch, it doesn't matter if you get the guy out or not.

Mo, 100 pitches happens to be a pretty good estimate of when to start worrying about pitch count. The variance on this number is not that great. Some pitchers don't throw high stress pitches, and can go longer because of it (I think Levan Hernandez would be a good example of this). Sure, there will be variance in when pitches start to become damaging to a player. Hell, even for the same pitcher, one set of 100 pitches isn't the same as the next. If every pitch is thrown with no one on, it will be less stressful than 100 pitches with a guy on second every time. You're right, it is silly to fixate on the number 100. However, it happens to be a rather useful benchmark.

mo42nyy · #83 11-01-2007, 08:06 AM

How useful was it for Bob Gibson in 1968 when he completed 28 of his 34 starts and was NEVER taken out of a game except for a pinch hitter. The game has changed but as CSC pointed out not as much as you make it seem. Theres is deifntly a balance that has to be reached but do you have any studies done say from the 1950's-70s about the dropoff in effectiveness after 100 pitches or is this just based on the fact that after being rearded for going 5 and 2/3 innings and leaving with a 7-4 lead guys are content and teams don't push them to do more?

CardSharpCook · #84 11-01-2007, 08:18 AM

The only study I've read is from "Baseball Between the Numbers," I believe, and I don't recall the particulars of it (ie, what years they were looking at). I'd be curious to see such. Remember though, just because pitchers were able to pitch 120 pitches doesn't mean it was good for them. Also, I believe you brought up the point of the lowered mound having a negative impact on pitcher health which I've certainly heard before from many sources. I believe that was immediately following Gibson's '68 season? I'd also like to see a study of pitcher career length based on decade with an eye out for pitchers who left the game due to injury or decreased effectiveness. Of course, decreased effectiveness is often a function of wearing down the arm.

wisehandpoker · #85 11-01-2007, 10:05 PM

It's official.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090266

andyfox · #86 11-01-2007, 11:24 PM

"there must be some tactical decision making in AL games, that you can point out to me, that do not take place in the NL. Care to elaborate?"

Bottom of the 5th. 1-1 game. Nobody out, man on first.

NL: Pitcher is up. What will the manager do? One thing only.

AL: #9 hitter is up. What will the manager do? Bunt? Maybe. Hit away? Maybe. Hit and run? Maybe. Run and hit? Maybe.

In The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (1986), he addressed the question of whether the DH rule diminishes baseball by obviating the need for certain applications of strategy, "strategy" being defined in the minds of purists as (a) having the pitcher bunt with a man on and (b) pinch-hitting for the pitcher late in the game. Making use of the concept of standard deviation, James mathematically demonstrated that the DH rule actually increased the use of strategy, provided it was defined more sensibly not as the rote application of traditional moves in traditional situations but rather as the thoughtful consideration of options.

mo42nyy · #87 11-02-2007, 11:48 AM

top of the 7th tied game 0-0
man on 2nd 2 outs
Lets use this years Bluejays as an example playing an NL team in an NL park
Roy Halladay is up, has only throw 72 pithes, can pitch 9 innings easily, your bullpen sucks and the team your facing has a good bullpen
This is not an automatic decision

Mondogarage · #88 11-02-2007, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"there must be some tactical decision making in AL games, that you can point out to me, that do not take place in the NL. Care to elaborate?"

Bottom of the 5th. 1-1 game. Nobody out, man on first.

NL: Pitcher is up. What will the manager do? One thing only.

AL: #9 hitter is up. What will the manager do? Bunt? Maybe. Hit away? Maybe. Hit and run? Maybe. Run and hit? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if your pitcher is Mike Hampton, or El Duque, or Micah Owings, or even someone like Aaron Cook, who isn't exactly a great hitter, but far from an automatic out? The decision is not always that simple.

First you have to decide who's doing the hitting, then, you still have that entire matrix of "Bunt? Maybe. Hit away? Maybe. Hit and run? Maybe. Run and hit? Maybe"

durron597 · #89 11-02-2007, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad he's going to the fourth best team in the division.

[/ QUOTE ]

Needle77 · #90 11-02-2007, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"there must be some tactical decision making in AL games, that you can point out to me, that do not take place in the NL. Care to elaborate?"

Bottom of the 5th. 1-1 game. Nobody out, man on first.

NL: Pitcher is up. What will the manager do? One thing only.

AL: #9 hitter is up. What will the manager do? Bunt? Maybe. Hit away? Maybe. Hit and run? Maybe. Run and hit? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if your pitcher is Mike Hampton, or El Duque, or Micah Owings, or even someone like Aaron Cook, who isn't exactly a great hitter, but far from an automatic out? The decision is not always that simple.

First you have to decide who's doing the hitting, then, you still have that entire matrix of "Bunt? Maybe. Hit away? Maybe. Hit and run? Maybe. Run and hit? Maybe"

[/ QUOTE ]

I love Nat'l league baseball but come on. Man on first no outs every pitcher in the league is bunting