Jacks and Tens (2 hands)

skier_5 · #1 08-31-2006, 05:15 AM

stars 109. This first hand, the TT hand, I was recently moved to this table and don't have any reads.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 (t1975)
MP1 (t5760)
MP2 (t4630)
CO (t3675)
Button (t5265)
Hero (t6781)
BB (t4530)
UTG (t9641)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises to t600, 1 fold, Button calls t600, Hero is all in.

This next hand hand happened a little while later at the same table. I just recently got my big stack and had raised and taken down a few pots. Last hand I raised in MP and folded to a realatively short stack shove (wasn't getting odds with my hand). Then this hand happens:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t3625)
SB (t5485)
BB (t6137)
UTG (t4100)
UTG+1 (t3590)
Hero (t11536)
MP2 (t4155)
MP3 (t10166)
CO (t4695)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t600, 1 fold, MP3 calls t600, CO raises to t2200, 3 folds, Hero is all in.

cold caller is bdubs3737 and the half stack raiser is GB2005.

0evg0 · #2 08-31-2006, 05:39 AM

Hand 1 is just flat-out awful, and I'm sure you already know why. Just call the man's raise PF.

Hand 2 is probably even worse. CO is doing this with position on you and the limper and doesn't seem to mind getting to act last on the flop with half his stack already in there. I haven't played with GB2005 more than a handful of times, but I don't remember anything donktastic about him. I just don't see how you aren't crushed here. That being said, I don't really like his line if he actually does have QQ+. If he's thinking on another level and is doing this with AK though, props to him.

bedtime, im not making sense anymore

Imrahil · #3 08-31-2006, 08:05 AM

On hand two the guy puts half his stack in which means a monster normally. I fold.

Foucault · #4 08-31-2006, 08:14 AM

I like Hand 1. You have a lot to gain by getting it heads up or taking it down pre-flop, even though you probably have the best hand. I do this with worse than TT.

Hand 2 is a fold. You raise from earlyish position, get cold-called by a short-stack, and then we see a suspicious raise. It's not impossible that you're still good, but it you're beat often enough to fold. GB is pretty tight, though he does make good reads and I assume is capable of making a play, in this case he's got no reason not to read at least one of you for strength.

skier_5 · #5 08-31-2006, 10:34 AM

If I recall correctly, I forgot to mention that in hand one Mp2 had raised and taken down a few pots recently in the few hands that I had been there. Why do you hate this 0veg0?

As for hand 2, what's our reshoving range there? AK, QQ+? Do we play this differently if GB2005 shoves? do we play this differently if he makes this half stack raise but I raise from a later position? Oh, and it wasn't very clear but the hand I raised and folded was the previous hand from EP.

Mr. Id · #6 08-31-2006, 11:03 AM

I also hate hand 1. I realize you're oop and TT is a sick hand in your position because it's too good too fold but it is also too easy to get into trouble w/ it. If you really want to take it down preflop, why not raise to ~2400, 4x MP's raise? If either MP or button will call this, they'll call your push. And the hands that will do that have you crushed IMHO. This raise leaves you w/ almost 20BB, plenty of room to maneuver, and you can get out of the way if a board like AKJ suited hits and either of the other two players get frisky.

Hand 2: I agree w/ Foucalt, it's not impossible that you're good, but something smells funny. I think you're beat frequently enough to fold as well. as far as reshoving is concerned, QQ is the bottom of my range if not still just below it. GB could be making an excellent squeeze play here, and if he is, gh to him. That being said, without AA or KK, i'm loathe to call in this spot.

Foucault · #7 08-31-2006, 11:09 AM

Is no one looking at stack sizes here? MP2 raises to 600, leaving ~4K behind. Button calls, leaving 4600 behind. Pot is now 1500, so Hero is effectively shoving for 3x pot. We're not deep enough to play for set value, nor do we have any reason to think we aren't good. Any re-raise commits us to the pot (if you make it 2400, you should never fold). How is a push anything but standard here?

NoahSD · #8 08-31-2006, 12:17 PM

I like 'em both.

Mr. Id · #9 08-31-2006, 05:29 PM

you're right foucault (sorry about the misspell earlier) i didn't look at the stack sizes, we can't fold following a re-raise so a push is effectively the same thing. That being said, I hate (personally) pushing here w/ TT, even if we're ahead it isn't by much, except maybe the buttong who I can see making that call with a 55 - 99, and against two potential callers TT gets really weak. Had the button not called I would feel better about a push, but it feels way icky in this situation. Even though we're not deep enough for set value, I think a call might be best. It's weak/tight, blech. Ok, basically i'm writing this to say you're right, I didn't see the stack sizes so a push is better than a raise, but I am a big enough donk to call here and hope for unders or a set... I reiterate, I hate this spot.

Moose747 · #10 08-31-2006, 05:37 PM

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I like 'em both.

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