What about 'recovered religious'?

Alex-db · #1 01-31-2007, 06:01 AM

There seems to be a common theme that atheists haven't 'tried believing'.

So people who have been religious, but are now atheists, would be people who 'had a relationship with God/Jesus', genuinely believed they believed, and all other criteria that should suggest their continued believe would be self-evident.

What can we conclude from the fact that they questioned their belief system and then abandoned it, despite having had that clarifying deeper dialogue with God which I apparantly should expect if only I were to choose to believe?

What would be interesting questions to ask those converted to atheism, that would allow us to look into this further?

(An example; UK entertainer Derren Brown, who described himself as a happy-clappy evangelical Christian during university. He says examining the circular nature of his beliefs and reading the Bible as a historical document converted him to atheism. He provided one of the quotes in the cover of "The God Delusion", and I'd recommend downloading the show produced in America called "Messiah", for a look at circular belief systems.)

Sephus · #2 01-31-2007, 07:15 AM

satan has completely taken over your mind. that, or you never really believed. or, you actually still believe but you believe that you don't believe.

i tried to start this exact conversation with txag, but i lost the stomach for it soon after he pulled out the "i doubt that you ever truly believed" line.

kurto · #3 01-31-2007, 12:05 PM

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There seems to be a common theme that atheists haven't 'tried believing'.

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We don't seem to have a lot of believers trying out "not beleiving." Or choosing to believe another religion. I guess they're not really checking out the alternatives.

DrewDevil · #4 02-03-2007, 11:46 AM

I was a very religious and devoted Christian until I was about 30 and my first marriage (to another very religious, devoted Christian) dissolved into a bitter trainwreck of a divorce. I had spent so much time and energy praying about "the one God would being me" that I was pretty disillusioned that He had sent me such a b!tch.

So I'm pretty much a skeptic/agnostic these days, though I probably still believe in God. I don't know. I just don't think He's really exerting much influence over what happens here.

NotReady · #5 02-03-2007, 02:21 PM

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What can we conclude from the fact that they questioned their belief system and then abandoned it, despite having had that clarifying deeper dialogue with God which I apparantly should expect if only I were to choose to believe?

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Apostasy is hardly new. Israel throughout the OT was leaving God and pursuing idolatry. Even while Moses was on the mountain receiveing the 10 commandments the people were making the golden calf and worshipping it. Solomon, the wisest man during his time, fell into idolatry during the latter part of his life. In the NT many warnings are given about falling away. Paul says he examines himself daily and even hints about the possibility he might be found wanting. Peter assured Jesus he would never leave him and shortly thereafter denied Him three times. I think the reasons for unbelief are the same whether someone has never believed or has at some time professed belief.

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He says examining the circular nature of his beliefs and reading the Bible as a historical document converted him to atheism

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I wonder if he has examined the circular nature of his current beliefs.

vhawk01 · #6 02-03-2007, 04:22 PM

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What can we conclude from the fact that they questioned their belief system and then abandoned it, despite having had that clarifying deeper dialogue with God which I apparantly should expect if only I were to choose to believe?

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Apostasy is hardly new. Israel throughout the OT was leaving God and pursuing idolatry. Even while Moses was on the mountain receiveing the 10 commandments the people were making the golden calf and worshipping it. Solomon, the wisest man during his time, fell into idolatry during the latter part of his life. In the NT many warnings are given about falling away. Paul says he examines himself daily and even hints about the possibility he might be found wanting. Peter assured Jesus he would never leave him and shortly thereafter denied Him three times. I think the reasons for unbelief are the same whether someone has never believed or has at some time professed belief.

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He says examining the circular nature of his beliefs and reading the Bible as a historical document converted him to atheism

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I wonder if he has examined the circular nature of his current beliefs.

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Not that it really matters to your point, and I think I agree with what you are really saying, but I think you are misusing 'circular' here. Or at least, your general position, in this and other threads, is misusing the idea of circularity. My core beliefs aren't circular. I don't use reason to figure out that I have reason. I don't use my free will to figure out I have free will. Its not circular, unless its ME who doesn't know what circular means.

Prodigy54321 · #7 02-03-2007, 04:36 PM

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I wonder if he has examined the circular nature of his current beliefs.

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what "current beliefs" do you know he holds?

of course what I am getting at is...atheism is not a belief, it is a lack thereof. (note that I know nothing about this guy's beliefs so he could be a "strong atheist" for all I know.

NotReady · #8 02-03-2007, 04:43 PM

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I think you are misusing 'circular' here

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And

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My core beliefs aren't circular.

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I don't know the details of Brown's thinking. My only point is that all human reasoning involves circularity because of the finite nature of man. We have to have a fundamental presupposition regarding our worldview and epistemology. All our thinking is then based on this presupposition(s) and is itself circular because of that. If you reject theism only because it's circular you are saying there is no valid worldview possible, which is self-refuting. Humans are stuck with circularity about ultimate questions.

I'm not suprised to find this kind of philosophical ignorance associated with Dawkins. Par for the course.

vhawk01 · #9 02-03-2007, 04:51 PM

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I think you are misusing 'circular' here

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And

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My core beliefs aren't circular.

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I don't know the details of Brown's thinking. My only point is that all human reasoning involves circularity because of the finite nature of man. We have to have a fundamental presupposition regarding our worldview and epistemology. All our thinking is then based on this presupposition(s) and is itself circular because of that. If you reject theism only because it's circular you are saying there is no valid worldview possible, which is self-refuting. Humans are stuck with circularity about ultimate questions.

I'm not suprised to find this kind of philosophical ignorance associated with Dawkins. Par for the course.

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You are simply doing it again. We have to come down to some base, fundamental presupposition, that is NOT circular. Its only circular if we use that presupposition to support the VALIDITY of that presupposition. But we don't.

NotReady · #10 02-03-2007, 04:57 PM

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what "current beliefs" do you know he holds?

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He must be a member of Pope Dawkins' church of the selfish gene.

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atheism is not a belief, it is a lack thereof.

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I don't think it's possible for a human not to have a fundamental worldview. I don't think it's an option. We are made that way, we can't stop thinking, we can't stop believing in something.