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#11
06-12-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
fret we are getting 10:1 on the flop, would you just call here? with 4 ppl on the flop, maybe we cant count MP2s bet as a c-bet, do we credit him with a hand just yet? I feel that maybe i am being too aggressive with hands like this, and over estimating the strength, but at the same time, if we have the best hand, we want money in there. Whats the difference between a TAP and a TAG, do they play pretty much the same starting hands? [/ QUOTE ] I don't go by PTs labelling of players. I have pahud, thus the most releveant stats right on the table and I get to my own conclusion. He'll bet basically any flop. This hand is completely standard and if you indeed lost to KQ or KK or whatnot, lol@him for saving you money. 
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#12
06-12-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: QJs
King otter, i would probably have folded to a re-raise on the flop, or called, and checked the turn, though with 8 outs to a straight it would be hard to fold the turn too.
u also get 10 bonus points for reading villains hand, well done :P This happens to me quite a lot, that i have TPMK, raise on the flop, and the other guy goes 'oh no', then just calls down, and my rage level rises. Which is why im wondereing wether this is too aggressive, or they are just being too passive.
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#13
06-12-2007, 09:37 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think your preflop play is problematic. A raise would have helped a lot clarifying the other players. Given that you have just called, I would be inclined to fold to the MP2 bet preflop. [/ QUOTE ] uhm... no...!! (hint: What are your chances of flopping a decent hand - what odds are you getting?) [/ QUOTE ] I guess your "no" is meant for my last sentence. That I think I understand given the numbers of players in the flop and just one call needed to see the flop. Do you think my first line of a possible raise is also rubbish or would you consider that possible? [/ QUOTE ] I don't open with QJs in EP, but raising is far and away superior to limp/folding for one bet.
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#14
06-12-2007, 09:39 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think your preflop play is problematic. A raise would have helped a lot clarifying the other players. Given that you have just called, I would be inclined to fold to the MP2 bet preflop. [/ QUOTE ] uhm... no...!! (hint: What are your chances of flopping a decent hand - what odds are you getting?) [/ QUOTE ] I guess your "no" is meant for my last sentence. That I think I understand given the numbers of players in the flop and just one call needed to see the flop. Do you think my first line of a possible raise is also rubbish or would you consider that possible? [/ QUOTE ] Basically never fold for one pf. If you put any $$$ in the pot, you'll just about always get better odds with the rais (though of course, you need to adapt postflop to the strengh that his pfr likely indicates). About the rest of your initial post: Scared! I'd never put someone on KQ or AQ because with those hands, he should 3bet the flop or raise the turn or do anything to do the strengh of his hand justice by putting money in. Based on the action, villain "should" hold some underpair or AK/AJ, certainly nothing that beats us.
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#15
06-12-2007, 09:44 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
King otter, i would probably have folded to a re-raise on the flop, or called, and checked the turn, though with 8 outs to a straight it would be hard to fold the turn too. u also get 10 bonus points for reading villains hand, well done :P This happens to me quite a lot, that i have TPMK, raise on the flop, and the other guy goes 'oh no', then just calls down, and my rage level rises. Which is why im wondereing wether this is too aggressive, or they are just being too passive. [/ QUOTE ] It's a symptom of playing dominated hands like QJ too much. They're problem hands, and hard to get away from when you flop top-pair and so they cost you more money than they're really worth. That's why this is a fold pre-flop in EP with 2 folds to you. QJs you want to play with 4+ people, and you want to flop a redraw to a big hand like a flush or a straight. With aggressive people behind you open-limping in is a dangerous thing. You played it well postflop, considering, but if you had gotten any push back you should have folded. I'm thinking primarily turn/river. I wouldn't have folded the flop for one more, but called and then check/folded the turn UI. IMO he also played his hand well, because if he had pushed back he would have lost bets (hopefully).
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#16
06-12-2007, 09:48 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think your preflop play is problematic. A raise would have helped a lot clarifying the other players. Given that you have just called, I would be inclined to fold to the MP2 bet preflop. [/ QUOTE ] uhm... no...!! (hint: What are your chances of flopping a decent hand - what odds are you getting?) [/ QUOTE ] I guess your "no" is meant for my last sentence. That I think I understand given the numbers of players in the flop and just one call needed to see the flop. Do you think my first line of a possible raise is also rubbish or would you consider that possible? [/ QUOTE ] Basically never fold for one pf. If you put any $$$ in the pot, you'll just about always get better odds with the rais (though of course, you need to adapt postflop to the strengh that his pfr likely indicates). About the rest of your initial post: Scared! I'd never put someone on KQ or AQ because with those hands, he should 3bet the flop or raise the turn or do anything to do the strengh of his hand justice by putting money in. Based on the action, villain "should" hold some underpair or AK/AJ, certainly nothing that beats us. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for the details - another day of losing illusions about my play. Still cheaper than learning on a real game. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#17
06-12-2007, 10:24 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] King otter, i would probably have folded to a re-raise on the flop, or called, and checked the turn, though with 8 outs to a straight it would be hard to fold the turn too. u also get 10 bonus points for reading villains hand, well done :P This happens to me quite a lot, that i have TPMK, raise on the flop, and the other guy goes 'oh no', then just calls down, and my rage level rises. Which is why im wondereing wether this is too aggressive, or they are just being too passive. [/ QUOTE ] It's a symptom of playing dominated hands like QJ too much. They're problem hands, and hard to get away from when you flop top-pair and so they cost you more money than they're really worth. That's why this is a fold pre-flop in EP with 2 folds to you. QJs you want to play with 4+ people, and you want to flop a redraw to a big hand like a flush or a straight. With aggressive people behind you open-limping in is a dangerous thing. You played it well postflop, considering, but if you had gotten any push back you should have folded. I'm thinking primarily turn/river. I wouldn't have folded the flop for one more, but called and then check/folded the turn UI. IMO he also played his hand well, because if he had pushed back he would have lost bets (hopefully). [/ QUOTE ] Bah. QJs is profitable in EP in the micros. I'm sure of it. If you don't want to play in at 5/10 online I'm down with that. Minor thread hijack: What position is everybody open raising QJs in?
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#18
06-12-2007, 01:06 PM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
Bah. QJs is profitable in EP in the micros. I'm sure of it. If you don't want to play in at 5/10 online I'm down with that. [/ QUOTE ] At most of the 1/2 tables I've played at, open limping leads to getting isolated more often than starting a limp parade. So I wouldn't limp as a default, but after being at a table for a few orbits, I can easily change my mind. [ QUOTE ] Minor thread hijack: What position is everybody open raising QJs in? [/ QUOTE ] 3-4 off the button, give or take.
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#19
06-12-2007, 11:54 PM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
Bah. QJs is profitable in EP in the micros. I'm sure of it. If you don't want to play in at 5/10 online I'm down with that. Minor thread hijack: What position is everybody open raising QJs in? [/ QUOTE ] I don't quite see where you got that I said QJs is unprofitable. I just pointed out the more profitable situations. OP says he's consistently showing down 2nd best top pair hands and wondering why... I gave a reason.
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#20
06-13-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: QJs
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Bah. QJs is profitable in EP in the micros. I'm sure of it. If you don't want to play in at 5/10 online I'm down with that. Minor thread hijack: What position is everybody open raising QJs in? [/ QUOTE ] I don't quite see where you got that I said QJs is unprofitable. I just pointed out the more profitable situations. OP says he's consistently showing down 2nd best top pair hands and wondering why... I gave a reason. [/ QUOTE ] Happy Birthday! Well, you said to fold it preflop and I'm assuming you are not folding hands which you think are profitable...
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