Theory question: leading into the pre-flop raiser

Asgrow13 · #1 09-09-2007, 11:44 PM

So I was talking with one of my friends about ways to open up my game, and we got to talking about leading into pre-flop raisers. This is something I more or less never really do, barring highly exceptional circumstances. I know I find it tough to deal with players who will routinely lead into me when I raise pre-flop... I struggle much more with putting them on a hand. I know that some kids like strassa are capable of leading into pre-flop raisers with all sorts of hands (sets, overs, gutshots, air etc.) and by doing so put a lot of pressure on the original raiser and eventually get them to make big mistakes. I'm basically wondering what sorts of spots people are doing this in, or against what sorts of villians, and if anyone has any advice on how to start integrating this into my game. Thanks.

frenchfish · #2 09-10-2007, 12:03 AM

I often do small lead into the bettor when i have some good draws and the stacks sizes or too deep for the uusual checkraise to be profitable.So instead i lead then hope to get reraise to be able to shove profitably with some fold equity.
Of course if u are playing with some good players and they are noticing what you are doing you shoul mix up your game and play your set or big hands like that from time to time.

blah-blah-blah · #3 09-10-2007, 12:04 AM

this is something I've been wondering about lately as well. I basically never lead into the pfr'er, but am starting to think it would be something good to mix in from time to time but can never find a good spot to do it.

edit: hmmm....i was kind of thinking about a spot where we are leading into the pfr'er basically to beat him to the c-bet, i.e. I'm not planning to b3b but rather to b/f. anyone ever do this?

inverted · #4 09-10-2007, 01:43 AM

I made a post about this in the micro stakes but didn't get any real response but its something that I have been looking at aswell.

carol-ann · #5 09-10-2007, 06:31 AM

If villain cbets too much then a good exploitative strategy would usually be about checkraising more than donking.

BigPoppa · #6 09-10-2007, 07:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this is something I've been wondering about lately as well. I basically never lead into the pfr'er, but am starting to think it would be something good to mix in from time to time but can never find a good spot to do it.

edit: hmmm....i was kind of thinking about a spot where we are leading into the pfr'er basically to beat him to the c-bet, i.e. I'm not planning to b3b but rather to b/f. anyone ever do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will donk bet with weak PP, unpaired overcards, and weak draws; but I also bet-3bet a lot with sets/2 pair/strong draws. If you only do one or the other, people will notice. If you do both, it makes it very hard to play against your donking range.

Flat calling preflop and donking any flop can be very effective against LP raisers with hands you don't want to 3bet with.

inverted · #7 09-10-2007, 08:03 AM

anyone think donk betting large into a 3 flush board or an ace high board is a good place to bluff?

Asgrow13 · #8 09-10-2007, 08:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I often do small lead into the bettor when i have some good draws and the stacks sizes or too deep for the uusual checkraise to be profitable.So instead i lead then hope to get reraise to be able to shove profitably with some fold equity.
Of course if u are playing with some good players and they are noticing what you are doing you shoul mix up your game and play your set or big hands like that from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've attempted this move a few times (the bet/3b all in with a big draw), but I get myself in trouble when the preflop raiser just calls my bet and I blank on the turn. Now I'm stuck between firing again, checking and probably not having odds to call a bet, or check raising and maybe getting it in with the worst of it since now I only have 1 card to come. I do think if you make this play, you have to be capable of doing it with a set too, otherwise any villian who takes careful notes will catch on to you pretty quick.

Asgrow13 · #9 09-10-2007, 08:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If villain cbets too much then a good exploitative strategy would usually be about checkraising more than donking.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this (assumming you're talking about checkraising without a big hand) is that when the villian does have a real hand, you're losing a way bigger pot than you would if you just lead out. Granted, you make less when the villian has nothing, since you snap off his cbet in addition to whats in the pot. This is sort of what I'm trying to weigh right now. I feel like especially in pots where no one hit, which probably happens a fair amount, being the first one to bet will win it for you a lot, even if you have nothing or say an underpait. Plus if you start leading out with sets too, then it becomes very difficult for people to put you on a hand and it might be easier to win big pots when you do flop huge. Just throwing some ideas around.

McRoNiX · #10 09-10-2007, 09:27 AM

I think the two things you need to look at are the opponent and the board texture. What hands is he raising with from the position he was in, how willing will he be to lay down 2 overs, etc. And also if the board comes 2 5 7r, you obviously have a better chance of making him fold (if he doesnt have an overpair) than an A K T board, which is more likely to have hit them.
I try bringing this into my game when i'm playing 1-2 or 3 tables, but any more than this I think I lose the edge of making this play work unless I've played with the opponent a lot before hand.