PS $109, I got what I wanted, or did I?

DarrenX · #1 10-09-2007, 10:52 AM

Villain is good player, 25K profits, 40% ROI in 500 tournies. I doubled up early vs superdonk's 99 on a 23TQ board with 22. I haven't been out of line as of yet. No other read on villain.

I have 6100, villain has 2700. 10/20 blinds, 3K starting stacks.

I open raise in mp to 80 with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Villain calls on the button, blinds fold. Heads up to the flop (190):

3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I purposely underbet the flop looking for a bluff raise. I bet 80, and get raised quickly to 300. I call fairly quickly. Turn (790):

3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I think and check, villain fairly quickly bets 700, leaving 1800 behind. I...

Requin · #2 10-09-2007, 10:58 AM

Your flop plan seems groundless and not a very good idea. I'd probably let it go on the turn, although your quick call makes it more likely he's bluffing.

LuckyLloyd · #3 10-09-2007, 11:08 AM

What you are trying to do on the flop is silly - because there is no reasonable draw for you to have. And, people who do what you did on the flop are generally very difficult to take off top - pair or 88 - QQ on that board. As such, I would expect that you are beat a lot here.

I think you can fold the turn. Or, you can call and check fold EVERY river if you want to be really stubborn.

But please, don't take that line on the flop. Just continuation bet normally. If you are prone to taking wierd lines only with what you perceive as your gin hands - you are probably very, very easy to play against.

eBo · #4 10-09-2007, 11:11 AM

I hate your flop line. Just bet 2/3 pot. He's more likely to call than raise you w/KQ,KJ,QQ-88. If he raises you, you're WA/WB.

As played, push the turn.

LuckyLloyd · #5 10-09-2007, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate your flop line. Just bet 2/3 pot. He's more likely to call than raise you w/KQ,KJ,QQ-88. If he raises you, you're WA/WB.

As played, push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that we are WA / WB, why shove the turn? Apologies for the simplicity of the question, but I honestly cannot see how KQ or QQ stacks off here given our flop line and a CRAI on the turn.

Thanks in advance.

JohnFR · #6 10-09-2007, 11:30 AM

Shoving is very bad in WA/WB situations. Because if we are WA/WB and we shove it is very very very easy to play against us, this should be obvious. I'm not saying we are in a WA/WB situation, but the strategy advice of we are either WA/WB we should shove is terrible.

DarrenX · #7 10-09-2007, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But please, don't take that line on the flop. Just continuation bet normally. If you are prone to taking wierd lines only with what you perceive as your gin hands - you are probably very, very easy to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the feedback. I would agree I'd be easy to play against if this was the case. However, I'll occasionally take this line on anything from a set to air. But I agree that if I don't know what to do on the turn, it's not good.

eBo · #8 10-09-2007, 11:31 AM

When you get tricky and minbet the flop, it induces the villain to get tricky as well. As a result, it becomes difficult to read his hand. This is something I avoid when I'm OOP, and deepstakked. Given that villain is a good player, there's a decent chance that he decided to outplay you with garbage.

It might be correct to c/c turn and c/c river, but there are a lot of draws out there, and he MIGHT have KQ.

LuckyLloyd · #9 10-09-2007, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When you get tricky and minbet the flop, it induces the villain to get tricky as well. As a result, it becomes difficult to read his hand. This is something I avoid when I'm OOP, and deepstakked. Given that villain is a good player, there's a decent chance that he decided to outplay you with garbage.

It might be correct to c/c turn and c/c river, but there are a lot of draws out there, and he MIGHT have KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. I accept that we may be getting bluffed at here. And he may have turned a draw or have KQ. I also agree that we have created this problem for ourselves with a bad line; and it is difficult to narrow his range.

But given ALL of the above, surely calling the turn bet whilst making a decision to C / C or C / F depending on the river and timing tells, etc is much better than shoving?

And finally, as I asked, do you believe that KQ is calling if we shove over his turn bet?

DarrenX · #10 10-09-2007, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When you get tricky and minbet the flop, it induces the villain to get tricky as well. As a result, it becomes difficult to read his hand. This is something I avoid when I'm OOP, and deepstakked. Given that villain is a good player, there's a decent chance that he decided to outplay you with garbage.

It might be correct to c/c turn and c/c river, but there are a lot of draws out there, and he MIGHT have KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this may not have been the best line vs. a good player OOP, but to say there's a lot of draws out there on a K73r board? I can see AQh, QJh or JTh take this line, I suppose, with a 9h turn...