Limpers

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do you think the deception value vs other good players is worth more than when someone 3 bets behind you

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lol, I think its pretty standard for me to be way behind when 3-bet :-) I'm not raising 87s as standard but I'm doing it pretty liberally in the CO button. we have position so if we do get 3bet its from the blinds. Been my experience that if you limp in 50% of the dealt hands, you're most likely seeing the flop if its getting raised behind you. We're most likely way behind when we do get 3bet but its a big pot and we've got position.

Juicy table like this, I want to be the one controlling the action most of the time. I think the few hands we do lose a couple SB are overcome by the control we can get by outplaying the passives. If a smart player somewhere on the left figures out we're playing to agressive and starts popping often time to re-evaluate.

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one of the fish LRR'es with KK+?

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Not really worried about that. Most of the passive limpers are going to see the flop anyway. Now the LRR has an easily definable hand, and has to play me OOP in a big pot. I've got a great hand to snap off the overpair and odds to call to just about anything.

[jba]

"I am curious to know why people would raise 87s..?"

immediate ev is close to neutral / possibly ev+ depending on specific ranges (esp pfr), we may buy the button if we're the CO, we have the best position if we're the button, four card flops, free river cards, we have a hand that plays well in big multiway pots

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Plus everything jba just said

[Gurravasa]

raise all hands you want to play!

[J.D.]

I like this topic since I have the same problems in the games I play in (on purpose due to table selection).

My problem is after flopping a marginal hand in a medium-large pot and the pre-flop agrressor, I don't know what to do. Does everyone usually lead the flop expecting 2-3 calls? Do you check and bet a safe turn?

Help!

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Give an example. the hands we're talking about are very different and would play out very differently

[Absolution]

Hmmm, raising any of those would be fine. The 77 and QJs are easy raises. 87s is probably fine as well in terms of equity. I would raise A8s and above, but limp the others. They check to you on A high flops? Most of the guys in my games are donk betting A high flops now every time. Actually, they donk everything, but that's a different story. I always bet A high flops if I raised pre-flop. It's nice to know that loose passives find their way up to 10/20 though.

[jba]

"My problem is after flopping a marginal hand in a medium-large pot and the pre-flop agrressor"

you asked a very broad question and seem to want a specific answer which is impossible. but generally speaking assuming i'm in position and "marginal hand" indicates a hand with sd value I'm betting flop and turn and playing poker on the river. if marginal hand means a strong-medium/weak draw with no sd value i'm betting flop and checking turn. very weak draws with no sd value I'm checking behind on the flop.

[Absolution]

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I'm not worried about them one bit. But i am worried about the anyone else a the table who has a clue. I'm an AP regular, I always have to make sure my head is covered from the 14 other 2+2ers at my table :-)

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If they are applying your actions against loose passives to their games, then you don't have to worry either.

[J.D.]

Problem examples would be raising with the lower end of the range, 109s, 89s, etc. and flopping:

1) Top pair on a two flush/two to a straight board, it seems if I am checked to and bet, it goes call/call/call and now everyone has odds to draw to "anything" including overs.

2) Flop 2nd pair on a dry board, and bet with calls all the way, do you fire three streets? If not where do you stop?

Thanks!