Why 3bet? - Page 2

thac · #11 10-03-2007, 09:58 AM

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I really don't like 3-betting with AJo. Your hand is good against his button opening range, yeah; but your hand is also [censored] against his 3-bet calling range. So you're turning your hand into a bluff, and bloating the pot if you do get called. I'd prefer to call preflop and c/r a lot of flops.

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Honestly, I think btn's 3-bet calling range isnt so narrow as to put AJ nearer the bottomw end of the spectrum if the btn is regularly trying to steal blinds (i.e not less than 23 or something.)

I think I mostly raise because I mostly assume that btn raisers are FOS, and also for value, and also because we have the advantage of winning the pot with a c-bet on the flop mostly.

Even if his calling range is narrow there must be an obvious margin between his calling range and the range which he 4-bets with. Most vilians at this level do not smooth call with AA/KK/AK and they lump 55/KJ/AQ into the same bundle, which is irrel anyways since they mostly dont like their hand on the flop and you win with a c-bet.

People hardly ever float down at 50nl.

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While I agree with what you said, you tend to make more money when you flat AJo because he's gonna be raising A5o and a bunch of weaker aces, or like J9, JT, JQ.. they're mostly all gonna fold to a 3-bet but when you hit a A87 flop vs his ace-rag you're gonna win a bigger pot than if you 3-bet and he folds.

scallop · #12 10-03-2007, 10:01 AM

Yeah but id rather have a standard play that didnt require getting to showdown. Flat calling bloats the pot pf, and increases our chanc of getting to showdown, which I dont think is what AJ wants. Plus we dont get all that much value from a5 on the A92 board.

n4rf · #13 10-03-2007, 10:04 AM

I would either reraise depending on his Attempt to Steal% and his PFR% (if it's high) or just fold if he's pretty tight. AJ is a hand I HATE playing OOP because you know you're just giving it up (most of the time) if you miss.

thac · #14 10-03-2007, 10:13 AM

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Yeah but id rather have a standard play that didnt require getting to showdown. Flat calling bloats the pot pf, and increases our chanc of getting to showdown, which I dont think is what AJ wants. Plus we dont get all that much value from a5 on the A92 board.

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Flat calling doesn't bloat the pot, 3-betting does. I don't mind playing poker against a probably bad TAG, he'll in general c-bet and give up if he misses.. and if he has A5 on a A92, we're definitely getting more by playing the hand postflop than just the 4bb he raised preflop if we 3-bet and he folds.

corsakh · #15 10-03-2007, 10:16 AM

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I really don't like 3-betting with AJo. Your hand is good against his button opening range, yeah; but your hand is also [censored] against his 3-bet calling range. So you're turning your hand into a bluff, and bloating the pot if you do get called. I'd prefer to call preflop and c/r a lot of flops.

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Yes, no and no.

Your hand is good but not good enough to call because you need to hit with it. This does not happen very often and the vast majority of the time your gonna be folding the best hand to a cbet. Even if you hit, you never hit a monster and being OOP you have no idea where you are in the hand.

AJ is not [censored] against his calling range since there are thousands of bad regulars calling in this spot with pp and sc for "implied odds" and because "they have position". They don't play their hand properly in this post and just fold any flop that did not hit them. Either this, or they call very tightly and then you rake big profit by simply picking up their preflop raise.

And if his steal range is approaching 30%, it includes T6s and 87o. How is this a bluff?

CobraGoat · #16 10-03-2007, 10:18 AM

reasons for 3betting AJ in this spot:

you are likely ahead of his range.
you give yourself options to win the hand v. needing to hit if you call
the hand is much easier to play
even if you are called, you pick up the pot a large percent of the time with a 2/3-3/4 cbet.
most villains at these stakes give big credit to an OOP 3bet and give even more credit to a follow up cbet

thac · #17 10-03-2007, 10:19 AM

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I really don't like 3-betting with AJo. Your hand is good against his button opening range, yeah; but your hand is also [censored] against his 3-bet calling range. So you're turning your hand into a bluff, and bloating the pot if you do get called. I'd prefer to call preflop and c/r a lot of flops.

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Yes, no and no.

Your hand is good but not good enough to call because you need to hit with it. This does not happen very often and the vast majority of the time your gonna be folding the best hand to a cbet. Even if you hit, you never hit a monster and being OOP you have no idea where you are in the hand.

AJ is not [censored] against his calling range since there are thousands of bad regulars calling in this spot with pp and sc for "implied odds" and because "they have position". They don't play their hand properly in this post and just fold any flop that did not hit them. Either this, or they call very tightly and then you rake big profit by simply picking up their preflop raise.

And if his steal range is approaching 30%, it includes T6s and 87o. How is this a bluff?

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Notice I said c/r a lot of flops. Clearly he's gonna have trash a lot of the time, but when he calls our 3-bet it folds out every hand that we dominate and gets us against a much tighter range.

Knowing how light he calls 3-bets would help this situation, but I assume he's folding most hands to a 3-bet and calling/4-betting with the top end of his range.

You also notice that you said he has trash a lot of the time, and we'll never flop good to continue - we don't need to really because it's likely he won't have a hand either.

corsakh · #18 10-03-2007, 10:30 AM

C/r costs about the same, does not add value to big pairs, does not punish villain for stealing light and gives him an opportunity to hit.

The thing is, if his steal range is big enough, there are not many hands that dominate us.

If he is tight we pick up the pot preflop say 80% of the time.
If he calls loose, we pick up the pot postflop 2/3 of the time without even hitting it.

And being OOP negates the cases when we dominate his range since we do not control the pot.

thac · #19 10-03-2007, 10:32 AM

But he's only got a pfr of 12, he probably doesn't steal *too* light. I mean, you may as well 3-bet with 84o since you don't want a showdown and you expect to pick it up preflop or with a c-bet on the flop.

thing85 · #20 10-03-2007, 10:32 AM

I like 3betting because at 50 or 25 NL, people generally only call a 3bet with AK/AQ or a small/med PP (most fold these though) and generally only 4bet with AA/KK. If it's a solid player and he flat calls, you know you're probably behind but can fairly easily pick up the pot with a cbet on a flop like T47.

You can easily fold to a 4bet, especially if the button isn't terribly aggressive PF. But it seems like 90%+ of the time, typical button blind-stealer will fold, making 3betting extremely profitable.