Street by street vs TerrorOfSweden, EPT Barcelona (Hand w/ masters?) - Page 10

PujolsOfPokr · #91 10-04-2007, 07:56 PM

So, it looks like the pot is 1850 after the preflop action.

Given that, I think I would lead out in the 1000-1200 range. The bet should get him to do one of several things which is favorable to you, depending on his range:

If he has air, you want to get him to spew chips off into this pot before you take it down. If you bet around 1K into a 1.85K pot, assuming he is still aggro post-flop, he will raise when he has air to 3-4K, trying to convince you he has a really good hand. Then, you can shove over his raise, as you hand kills his range, and be able to pick up a lot of chips without a made hand, against his BS hand, without having to see a showdown.

If villain has a hand that beats yours, even one with showdown value like 4-4, 5-5, or 6-6, you should be able to get him to fold it to a 3-bet all-in, and if not you might still be marginally favorite (against his entire range of hands that are ahead of yours like AQ, 8-8, 9-9, etc..) So if his hand is at the bottom of the range, he will likely fold, and even if he has Q-Q and makes the donktastic call for over 100 BB's with the K on the board, you are still in solid shape. Additionally, you will fare better against the PP's he could be holding if you get it in on the flop, rather than wait until the turn blanks, as some are advocating. He is more likely to fold a 10-10 type of hand if you are over-aggressive on the flop, rather than if you just c/c flop to get it in on the turn. By the turn, the Eurodonk might already consider himself committed.

The third thing the smallish 1K bet does for you is allow you to determine when he has a monster, assuming that you have the post-flop playing ability to do so (as people are saying OP does). If you think you are good enough to determine exactly where Eurodonk stands in the hand given enough information, making the 1K bet gets you there. If you check the flop, you can always assume that he's going to bet behind you, so you gain no information about his hand from his standard continuation-bet action. You would have to c/r his continuation bet to see how he truly reacts, and by then you might have already commited 4K on flop action.

Thus, I think you lead out 1K, and make the proper determination if you think he might be holding AK (or even AA or KK) based on his reaction to your bet. If he raises to 3-4 times your bet, you can determine what that means (based on your prior interactions with him/reading ability). If he simply doubles your bet back to you, you can make the proper read. Or if he simply smooth-calls your 60%-of-pot bet, you can make the proper determination. Basically it allows you to put the action on him in a way in which he can make different plays which give off the true strength of his hand. This is in contrast to just checking the flop, as we can almost always assume a pot-sized bet from him given OP's description, meaning that gaining info from his standard c-bet will be a lot harder.

So, to summarize: I'd advocate a smallish flop bet of around 1K (or a little bit more) in order to disguise your hand and put the action on him in a way in which you would be best positioned to determine his exact hand range. Hope that made sense.

Ben86 · #92 10-04-2007, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So, to summarize: I'd advocate a smallish flop bet of around 1K (or a little bit more) in order to disguise your hand and put the action on him in a way in which you would be best positioned to determine his exact hand range. Hope that made sense.

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you mean like.. betting for information?

sorry i couldnt help it.

betgo · #93 10-04-2007, 08:36 PM

Why lead into the reraiser if you know he will cbet? Checkraising and pushing the turn is easy. "Playing poker" can get you into trouble against this guy with this hand.

0evg0 · #94 10-04-2007, 08:44 PM

i just check/shove

he cant call with 1 pair and there's no reason to think he's going to make a crazy call

we may get more chips on the turn, but we're sacrificing a guaranteed won pot on the flop

EC10 · #95 10-04-2007, 08:46 PM

bet 1100 on the flop, he'll raise, you go all in

PujolsOfPokr · #96 10-04-2007, 08:50 PM

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Why lead into the reraiser if you know he will cbet? Checkraising and pushing the turn is easy. "Playing poker" can get you into trouble against this guy with this hand.

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You lead into the villain b/c your hand crushes his range. So, if you goal is to get it all in on the flop (like the check-raise you are advocating), then you want maximum value for your bet.

Do you want his fold to your all-in to come after you check, he bets 1.5K, and you raise AI? Or after you bet 1K, he raises to 4K, then you push AI? If your hand crushes his range, you want him to commit as many chips as possible before you take it down with the push.

This is accomplished through 3-betting AI more easily than through check-raising AI.

PujolsOfPokr · #97 10-04-2007, 08:51 PM

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you mean like.. betting for information?

sorry i couldnt help it.

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Precisely. And yes, the dont-bet-for-info thread has gotten ridiculous at this point.

Ansky · #98 10-04-2007, 09:01 PM

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i just check/shove

he cant call with 1 pair and there's no reason to think he's going to make a crazy call

we may get more chips on the turn, but we're sacrificing a guaranteed won pot on the flop

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Who says he won't call with one pair?

Ansky · #99 10-04-2007, 09:03 PM

To everyone saying lead, or if you say check raise and he calls:

Turn is an offsuit Ace. Plan?

Turn is a low diamond. Plan?

Turn is a king. Plan?

Turn is a blank. Plan?

Turn is a T J or Q. Plan?

PujolsOfPokr · #**100** 10-04-2007, 09:08 PM

Ansky,

The idea of the small lead is to get the hand over with on the flop, precicely to eliminate having to make a tough turn decision OOP in a big pot. If you lead small, given your description of the villian, he is almost certain to raise with a large percentage of his range. Then you can shove, maximizing your value, and getting it in there on the flop with a hand that kills his range.