25/50 TT OTB vs Grimstarr

[Zeestein]

raise this river or is it suicide with your image?

AK is at the absolute top end of his range, no?

[AZK]

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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he is probably betting any river. You have no idea what the [censored] he has, how likely is he to check-raise bluff you on the turn? Probably not very likely if you guys have been screwing around pre but otherwise playing pretty well post. Unless you are saying that you are checking the turn and calling any river bet on any card, I think you need to bet. I frequently wrestle with this, there was a thread a while back where duck said something to the effect of you check and call any river in situations like this. I try to avoid having to make really difficult decisions so I normally bet the turn, but I can see why better players with better reads would check it.

[bigt439]

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Grim's never gonna be giving you an easy time on the R so going for a check-down on the T sucks imo. You need to decide whether you think you're ahead and raise the Flop or the Turn.

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That's the precise mindset that makes 3betting frequently a very profitable strategy in online poker.

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haha this is exactly what we were talking about the other day...

as far as the hand goes i like the turn check because betting almost entirely serves to protect your hand and doesn't do a great job of getting money from worse hands (in fact checking and betting / calling river does this better) and i think the spot it can put us in and our ability to make up some lost equity on the river outweighs the benefit of protecting against what is something like a 5 outer on average or a better hand. I guess alot of this depends on what grim check calls on the turn though... if he can do it with like 33 then this makes a bet much more appealing, obviously. However another problem is that we can get outplayed on the river and this is a pretty bad river for exactly that. It's a tough river decision... one that's really dependent on his river tendencies. If he can only really make this bet with an ace or better I think we've got to call, but if he can v-bet TT-KK i think its very hard to. But like I said, I don't know grim well enough to really say. Even if you make the wrong decision on the river, it's not likely to be particularly -ev, because i think its such a close spot. Although that's kind of a copout.

[skier_5]

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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he is probably betting any river. You have no idea what the [censored] he has, how likely is he to check-raise bluff you on the turn? Probably not very likely if you guys have been screwing around pre but otherwise playing pretty well post. Unless you are saying that you are checking the turn and calling any river bet on any card, I think you need to bet. I frequently wrestle with this, there was a thread a while back where duck said something to the effect of you check and call any river in situations like this. I try to avoid having to make really difficult decisions so I normally bet the turn, but I can see why better players with better reads would check it.

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Even without that great of reads, wouldn't it be better to save your turn bet and call a lot of rivers. If you're behind you lost roughly the same amount of money, but by checking the turn and calling the river you catch a few bluffs yourself. I feel like betting the turn just pushes grim towards the upper end of his range.

[stephenNUTS]

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25/50 on FTP 5 handed, 8.8k effective

grim's been reraising me a good deal, and im handling it ok, standard short handed aggro game.



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In HSNL,aggression is THE edge making the difference,between good players and GREAT players.As I dont play online I will offer some advice on this hand and the villian of moment Grimstarr:

1.Your above comment leads me to believe that his aggressive play,IS in fact giving you a difficult time.
2.Having a legit hand OTB with pocket tens,and raising could just appear to be a button raise to an aggressive foe like Grim,that he could re-raise with anything including a pocket pair ,Axs,suited conn's,one-gappers,AIR as well,etc. to see where your at,to CONTINUE to apply this pressure as you stated above.
3.Once you "only smooth" call his raise,and decide to see this particular flop,ANY aggressive player is likely to C_Bet repping a big hand whether he has one or not (for ex.AK,,KQ,type hands).We at this point are crushed by only JJ+,77,22,55 .His drawing hands can only be 34s,67s but not likely due to his PF re-raise,though from what I hear Grim can and will raise with any two.
4.Once he took the lead on the flop,I think you have to make a decision AT THAT POINT,by either re-raising or giving up before the pot too gets expensive with only 10's.This is very read dependent,that I for one cant help you here.
5.Just calling his lead though,puts you in a pretty tough spot though,as you have invested more $$$,without really gaining any info,and still knowing his aggression will continue to pressure you on the next two streets if we go unimproved.
6.When the 2 pairs the board on the turn,you prob.can rule out 22,but again so can he an, and thats about it.It is obvious at this point you would like to check it down if Grimstarr so desired?
Unfortunatly THAT is the problem ....GRIMSTARR nor any other great NLHS player is going oblige that easy!
7.The A on the river lead once again,obv.did not worry villain,any more than if you had AA's already and as played is now more unlikely a holding for you,and at this point and you certainly wouldnt still be in this spot with Ax(I hope not)nor would any drawing hands be completed from his point of view.

His continued betting after the river leads me to beleive you are either crushed(way back to the flop scenerio)or a stone cold bluff,well within Grimstars image.

It once again gets back to your PF and FLOP desision to stay with your hand by just calling,hoping for a checked down/cheap showdown.

This is where an aggressive foe is brutal to deal in deep stacked NL ,in or out posistion,and as a live player like myself,is where my READS-Gut come into play(i dont fair too well online),and I try making some decisions EARLY on how I intend to play that particular hand against tough foe's.Re-raising P/F or the FLOP will get some more needed information,slow him down,make him fold,that will not only save money in this spot,but let villian know you wont be pushed around going foward IMHO.
I have heard Grimstarr is not only a very skilled successful HS player,but when I play these types LIVE,I will take a stand at some point,fighting fire with fire.It can be very tough and cost some $$$$ sometimes,but that is my solution than just folding,folding,and more folding and being faced with tougher and more expensive decsions on future streets.In 75%+ of hands I am involved I either want the lead,to trap bluff,draw,whatever to put my opponents on their heals,and put pressure on THEM constantly

As played though,I would have picked a better spot,hand,or board(too dry) to take a stand with regard to defending an aggressive opponent in the future on medium strength/NON-nut/bluff type hands

Good Luck
~stephen

[ahnuld]

I just CRed allin on a similar board yesterday with KQ or some garbage. If im capable of making that play grim is very capable. I dont put him on an overpair that often as he wouldnt check turn and fire river so often with a KK QQ type hand, hes generally just blast the turn. This really isnt a bad card to call on getting some pot odds. So easy to rep the A, he almost has to. I think I call with the odds

[king_of_drafts]

I call this like 80% of the time

[Morrek]

callcalcall

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Pretty good line sub, I dont think grimm bluffs this river very often. Giving a free card on the turn isnt the greatest, but I think its better than betting against grimm.

[NMcNasty]

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bet turn?

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fold to raise? turns my hand into a bluff imo

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Bet turn, call raise. I think he calls with a 9 here more often than he has an overpair, and its a really good spot for him to bluff since you could be floating flop a lot in order to counter his preflop re-popping.

As played I think you can fold river. The good odds are what's scaring me, I think I would be more inclined to call a larger bet.