My Hall of Fame Ballot

[MikeyPatriot]

mondogarage,

If the BBWAA gave you a ballot, and you voted for players based on who you thought the other voters would be voting for, you'd be a goddamn moron.

If you really think Jim Rice is a better player than Tim Raines, I don't know what to say. Rice was not a better overall player, no matter how you look at it. Raines had better longevity and a better peak.

[Mondogarage]

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Are you mentally unable to make the distinction between who should make the HOF and who will make the HOF?

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Are you mentally unable to make the distinction between a poster stating who they would vote for induction into the HOF and a somewhat esoteric mathematical calculation of who's the better player?

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Are you contending that there's criteria other than who was the best player in determining who should make the HOF?

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Are you contending that the only qualification for the HOF is who has the higher OPS+ or VORP over the length of their career? If that's your contention, then ballots are unnecessary, only a computer ranking and a cold hard numbers cutoff are needed.

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If you asked Bill James who he thinks should make the HOF, Tim Raines of Jim Rice, what would he say?

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Bill James would probably say that Tim Raines should make the HOF. Why don't you ask him to post his ballot in this thread. That's his ballot to fill out, not mine. I don't think Tim Raines is a HOFer.

Why? Because I don't think he was ever among the very elite when compared to his peers (except for possibly a 2-3 year stretch, when he still wasn't better than Rickey Henderson). Why was he only even anywhere in the top 10 in MVP voting three times in his career? I think that Rice, during the prime of his career, was a more dominant player compared to his peers, than Raines was.

In fact, I think there's certainly people in the hall now who don't merit inclusion, but that's an entirely different discussion that I'm not going to go into in this thread.

Of course, while you continue to berate others for having opinions that diverge from your own, the truth is, your disparagement of others is about as relevant as your opinion of who the better player is, when it comes to actual HOF voting.

[Pudge714]

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Brady Anderson. That's it.

lol, wtf is this a-hole doing on the ballot?

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Guys automatically get on the ballot if they play enough seasons. IIRC Gary Discarnia was on the ballot year.

BTW I can't wait for Cubs fans to post about Andre Dawson or Yankees Fans to post for Donnie Baseball.

[Mondogarage]

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mondogarage,

If the BBWAA gave you a ballot, and you voted for players based on who you thought the other voters would be voting for, you'd be a goddamn moron.

If you really think Jim Rice is a better player than Tim Raines, I don't know what to say. Rice was not a better overall player, no matter how you look at it. Raines had better longevity and a better peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I listed the two players on the ballot whom I believe deserve induction, plain and simple. I don't equate having a few average to slightly better than average seasons after age 33 to be a HOF qualification.

If you think my posts indicate my HOF ballot would be based solely on what others' ballots, you'd be a goddamn moron.

If I'm objectively wrong about Rice being a better player, that's okay, it's a ballot, not a Sagarin ranking, and you'd be a goddamn moron as it pertains to the concept of a ballot in the first place.

[Pudge714]

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If you think my posts indicate my HOF ballot would be based solely on what others' ballots, you'd be a goddamn moron.

If I'm objectively wrong about Rice being a better player, that's okay, it's a ballot, not a Sagarin ranking, and you'd be a goddamn moron as it pertains to the concept of a ballot in the first place.

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Can someone please explain what he is trying to say here?

Mondo,
Lets say you have two players they play 10 years at the exact same level, one plays 4 more years at league average.
Is one player a better HOF candidate?

[MikeyPatriot]

I don't know why I get into discussions with people who want to completely disregard all evidence put in front of them.

[Jack of Arcades]

Berate? I'm asking you if you distinguish between who will make the HOF and who should. You referenced voters and predictions about who will make the the HOF in defense of your opinion about who should make the HOF. Since they're two different things, I'm simply asking if you can make that distinction.

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Are you contending that the only qualification for the HOF is who has the higher OPS+ or VORP over the length of their career?

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Certainly the members of the Hall of Fame should match up closely with the list of the best players as best we can measure who the best players were.

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Bill James would probably say that Tim Raines should make the HOF.

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Then why did you bring him up in the first place? When we were debating who should make the HOF, you brought up Bill James, yet he agrees with me. The only way it makes sense is if you believe that someone has a good chance of making the HOF is an argument for them actually making the HOF.

Do you see why I'm confused?

[Mondogarage]

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If you think my posts indicate my HOF ballot would be based solely on what others' ballots, you'd be a goddamn moron.

If I'm objectively wrong about Rice being a better player, that's okay, it's a ballot, not a Sagarin ranking, and you'd be a goddamn moron as it pertains to the concept of a ballot in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can someone please explain what he is trying to say here?

Mondo,
Lets say you have two players they play 10 years at the exact same level, one plays 4 more years at league average.
Is one player a better HOF candidate?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I am trying to say here is, I stated who I would vote for on this year's ballot (Rice & Gossage). Someone who disagrees with me based on my lack of vote for Raines would rather be insulting and verbally abusive of someone who chooses to vote differently. That person clearly fails to understand the concept that an election is not simply based on extracting a few compound stats from a computer and mandating a selection based on those, but rather, an election is based on people's opinions of who is deserving.

I simply stated that I feel Rice merits induction more than Raines, and I stated the criteria I was using for making that determination whether or not that criteria is objectively correct, or merely subjective. Unlike a couple of trolls here, I wouldn't insult anyone for listing Raines on their ballot. Nor would I call a poster names for either being objectively wrong about something, or having an opinion that differs from my own.

That is what I'm saying.

But then, the trolls aren't slinging mud at anyone else who didn't list Raines on their ballot, so the question you might be asking is, why not.

IMHO, I don't think playing at league average enhances one's candidacy, if that comes in your, say, early-to-mid 30s. So no, I don't think that makes one a better candidate than the other. Maybe, just maybe, slightly so. More so if those league-average years are at ages 36-39.

[Jack of Arcades]

Mondogarage,

Please post examples of me insulting, berating, disparaging, verbally abusing, trolling, or slinging mud people.

[MikeyPatriot]

You aren't a moron because you put Rice and not Raines on your ballot. You're a moron because you've failed to provide any legitimate evidence to support your opinion while completely disregarding all evidence from the other side. Your thesis isn't the problem, it's the substance in the essay.