Message to PokerRoad regarding durrrr

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair Gavin in one of the recent shows gave the online players a lot of credit and basically called them sick good.
I think he even remarked that he was a little scared.
My impression is that it's actually more Sebok who doesn't really understand or respect the online players and online poker in general.

That they don't, unlike the online cash games players, consider live tournament players complete donks, shouldn't really be all that suprising.

But I agree that it is a little embarrassing sometimes how ignorant they come across regarding the online poker world.
Scott Huff and Haralabob too, who I really like btw, I think he one time, wouldn't even acknowledge online poker as "real poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's the online players who don't get it. Although I like to rattle the cage of the young players, the truth is we are all poker players, but the young ones honed their craft on the Internet, because that is the place you can play a lot of poker nowadays.

In a live setting, these players need to learn the differences and I'm sure they will. In a live setting, the live pros are currently better, but some people misjudge this because the online players are mostly nolimit holdem specialists, as I was when I was in my twenties. It's hard to beat a good specialist at his game.

Phil Ivey and Patrik are the two biggest online winners of the last few years, and they learned poker live. David Benyamine is extremely good, but he puts himself in bad situations. Gus does things live that don't work as well when he plays online.

I think as a generalization I would say the online players are technically superior in nolimit holdem, but lack the feel.

I have only seen two young players who have good all around games: Nich Schulman and Mike McKenna (madcaddy). There were many so-called internet players in the HORSE tournament, but none even made it in the money.

Of course, I always put my money where my mouth is in the form of a crossbook, and I think I'm a favorite in a big live tournament against any of the young guns. I'm just glad Brian Townsend didn't put Durrr on his crossbook team as I expected him to.


Barry

[Autocratic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be fair Gavin in one of the recent shows gave the online players a lot of credit and basically called them sick good.
I think he even remarked that he was a little scared.
My impression is that it's actually more Sebok who doesn't really understand or respect the online players and online poker in general.

That they don't, unlike the online cash games players, consider live tournament players complete donks, shouldn't really be all that suprising.

But I agree that it is a little embarrassing sometimes how ignorant they come across regarding the online poker world.
Scott Huff and Haralabob too, who I really like btw, I think he one time, wouldn't even acknowledge online poker as "real poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's the online players who don't get it. Although I like to rattle the cage of the young players, the truth is we are all poker players, but the young ones honed their craft on the Internet, because that is the place you can play a lot of poker nowadays.

In a live setting, these players need to learn the differences and I'm sure they will. In a live setting, the live pros are currently better, but some people misjudge this because the online players are mostly nolimit holdem specialists, as I was when I was in my twenties. It's hard to beat a good specialist at his game.

Phil Ivey and Patrik are the two biggest online winners of the last few years, and they learned poker live. David Benyamine is extremely good, but he puts himself in bad situations. Gus does things live that don't work as well when he plays online.

I think as a generalization I would say the online players are technically superior in nolimit holdem, but lack the feel.

I have only seen two young players who have good all around games: Nich Schulman and Mike McKenna (madcaddy). There were many so-called internet players in the HORSE tournament, but none even made it in the money.

Of course, I always put my money where my mouth is in the form of a crossbook, and I think I'm a favorite in a big live tournament against any of the young guns. I'm just glad Brian Townsend didn't put Durrr on his crossbook team as I expected him to.


Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this actually true?

[Leveh]

Patrik Antonius learned poker online.

I know ZeeJustin cashed in the HORSE event and he's an online player as well. I don't know if any other internet players cashed, but you can't say that none of them cashed.

[EWS87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be fair Gavin in one of the recent shows gave the online players a lot of credit and basically called them sick good.
I think he even remarked that he was a little scared.
My impression is that it's actually more Sebok who doesn't really understand or respect the online players and online poker in general.

That they don't, unlike the online cash games players, consider live tournament players complete donks, shouldn't really be all that suprising.

But I agree that it is a little embarrassing sometimes how ignorant they come across regarding the online poker world.
Scott Huff and Haralabob too, who I really like btw, I think he one time, wouldn't even acknowledge online poker as "real poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's the online players who don't get it. Although I like to rattle the cage of the young players, the truth is we are all poker players, but the young ones honed their craft on the Internet, because that is the place you can play a lot of poker nowadays.

In a live setting, these players need to learn the differences and I'm sure they will. In a live setting, the live pros are currently better, but some people misjudge this because the online players are mostly nolimit holdem specialists, as I was when I was in my twenties. It's hard to beat a good specialist at his game.

Phil Ivey and Patrik are the two biggest online winners of the last few years, and they learned poker live. David Benyamine is extremely good, but he puts himself in bad situations. Gus does things live that don't work as well when he plays online.

I think as a generalization I would say the online players are technically superior in nolimit holdem, but lack the feel.

I have only seen two young players who have good all around games: Nich Schulman and Mike McKenna (madcaddy). There were many so-called internet players in the HORSE tournament, but none even made it in the money.

Of course, I always put my money where my mouth is in the form of a crossbook, and I think I'm a favorite in a big live tournament against any of the young guns. I'm just glad Brian Townsend didn't put Durrr on his crossbook team as I expected him to.


Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the argument in this case had nothing to do with guys like ivey and patrik

this is the case of people who play strictly live tournaments...if you take someone who ONLY plays live tournaments and put them up against someone who plays 10-20 tournaments online a day...there is no comparison

to be honest, durrr would have been a really bad pick for Brian in the prop bet as he never plays tournaments, his success only goes to show how a top notch online cash player can easily crush these live tournaments

yes the top 20 live players can play with the top 20 online players...but the players in the top 10-70th percentile online would destroy the live players of that same category and it is not even close

most if not all successful online cash player (who have shown it over a reasonable "long run" would be +EV in a WPT tournament

very few people who have won over a million dollars on the tournament trail could hold thier own in high cash games (both online and live)

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
Patrik Antonius learned poker online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not gonna dwell on this one but I think you're wrong and I assume Barry has a better idea than you.

[ QUOTE ]
I know ZeeJustin cashed in the HORSE event

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

[uter]

Barry,
can you tell us which players are on the rosters for this online vs pro crossbook?
also, who do u think would have an edge in the following -
live brick and mortar NL cash game:
townsend, durrr, antonius, 2 others [maybe galfond, urindanger, whoever the best 5 online are]

VS

any five people in the world you wanted to choose. including yourself, or ivey

[budblown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be fair Gavin in one of the recent shows gave the online players a lot of credit and basically called them sick good.
I think he even remarked that he was a little scared.
My impression is that it's actually more Sebok who doesn't really understand or respect the online players and online poker in general.

That they don't, unlike the online cash games players, consider live tournament players complete donks, shouldn't really be all that suprising.

But I agree that it is a little embarrassing sometimes how ignorant they come across regarding the online poker world.
Scott Huff and Haralabob too, who I really like btw, I think he one time, wouldn't even acknowledge online poker as "real poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's the online players who don't get it. Although I like to rattle the cage of the young players, the truth is we are all poker players, but the young ones honed their craft on the Internet, because that is the place you can play a lot of poker nowadays.

In a live setting, these players need to learn the differences and I'm sure they will. In a live setting, the live pros are currently better, but some people misjudge this because the online players are mostly nolimit holdem specialists, as I was when I was in my twenties. It's hard to beat a good specialist at his game.

Phil Ivey and Patrik are the two biggest online winners of the last few years, and they learned poker live. David Benyamine is extremely good, but he puts himself in bad situations. Gus does things live that don't work as well when he plays online.

I think as a generalization I would say the online players are technically superior in nolimit holdem, but lack the feel.

I have only seen two young players who have good all around games: Nich Schulman and Mike McKenna (madcaddy). There were many so-called internet players in the HORSE tournament, but none even made it in the money.

Of course, I always put my money where my mouth is in the form of a crossbook, and I think I'm a favorite in a big live tournament against any of the young guns. I'm just glad Brian Townsend didn't put Durrr on his crossbook team as I expected him to.


Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry, Do you think that the proposed scenario of having the top 20 of both live/online players compete in an online and live tourney would prove anything? They had mentioned it on the show and to me I don't believe that would prove anything at all. It's still just too small of a sample. Would 50 tourneys in each setting be a good enough sample? 100?

I have an idea for a tourney series.
$10M per team - 2 teams, online and live, 20 per team
50 Tourneys online and 50 live (so you get a semi-good sample)
1/2 prizepool goes to individual tourney's, 1/2 to overall team structure - so this way each person is competing against everyone, not just opposite team (no team play like Pokerbowl, though)
Per Tourney payout (assuming $10M per team)
1st - $55k
2nd - $20k
3rd - $15k
4th - $10k

Then with the team payout the winning team would split the remaining $10M. Scoring for teams would be as follows (least amount of total points wins)
1st - 1 point
40th - 40 points

Obviously this would only work if people had the time and resources to play as it would be $200k per person and to play 100 tournaments in addition to what people normally play would be difficult, but I think if the amount of money is high enough it could happen.

[EWS87]

[ QUOTE ]
Barry,
can you tell us which players are on the rosters for this online vs pro crossbook?
also, who do u think would have an edge in the following -
live brick and mortar NL cash game:
townsend, durrr, antonius, 2 others [maybe galfond, urindanger, whoever the best 5 online are]

VS

any five people in the world you wanted to choose. including yourself, or ivey

[/ QUOTE ]

see this is where the people who are arguing pro-online hurt the case...why go after the top 5 people live...they are insignificant in the argument...it would not be smart for any combination of the top 5 live players to play the top five online players and visa-versa

the argument should be:

1. That someone who has had success on the 10K+ buyin tournament circuit will for the most part be an underdog when put into a cash game (either online or lvie) with players who consistently beat online games

and

2. These same successful live 10K+ buyin tournament players will be dogs at a tournament table (both live and online) against players who consistently beat online tournaments and have played far many hands and tournaments to show a great understanding of their skill over variance

these 2 points go towards the majority of players...not the elite tournament players who also beat live high stakes cash games

barry, I would be surprised if you honestly disagree with these 2 arguments

[Daddy Warbucks]

[ QUOTE ]
to be honest, durrr would have been a really bad pick for Brian in the prop bet as he never plays tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

He only just turned 21.

[ QUOTE ]
his success only goes to show how a top notch online cash player can easily crush these live tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[Dan87]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
his success only goes to show how a top notch online cash player can easily crush these live tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT, I laughed when I read this.

Durr has been playing live tourneys since he turned 21 and openly said he got raped in the WSOP, and this is his first huge cash that I've heard of. No doubt he is a great player but saying he can crush them just because he won a ton of flips since day 1 is ridiculous. He even said himself in the interview early in the tournament that he was flopping the nuts every hand, so if he can be humble I don't get why fanboys can't.

I think a better statement would be "his success shows that when a thinking player plays good and runs good they can make it farther than a tourney donk" which I doubt anyone can argue with.