A8s, A9s, +EV or not?

[OregonRogue]

I'm stuck at work without my fancy poker software.

Situation: 6 person table, no reads at all on anyone at athe table. You're in the CO with A8s or A9s. UTG+1 raises.

Question: Is there value in a 3 bet or is it just spew? Does this answer change if you're playing $.5-$1 or $5-$10?

I'm saying that this is aclear fold until you get some sort of read but I'm getting some pretty heavy oposition. My arguement is that at the very best you're a small favorite and are relying solely on your positional advantage to make up for the times you're crushed by a bigger ace or pocket pair. on top of that, you have no garentee that you're getting this heads up, and nay third player will definately have you crushed and sinc eyou're in the CO you arent garenteed to have position on the flop.

This seems like pure spew to me unless you're by far better than the average player at a table you sit down at. Am I wrong here? It has been known to happen

[thepizzlefosho]

i think this pretty much depends on the opponent. I was sitting next to a guy last night that I would have 3-bet this instantaneously. But against a lot of LPs or TAGs it just hits the muck.

I think Oink said it best in another thread that too many people are looking for hard and fast rules as to how to play pf in 6max. Most the borderline hands (ie not trash or premiums) are very dependent on villains, position, metagame, and the players left to act in the hand.

It would be much better for you to take a look at your DB and find a couple of spots where you 3-balled A9s and give the relevant info about that spot and see what others think about whether or not this was a good play. Or you could look over them and find spots where you thought you should have 3-bet and didnt based on the game conditions, and post those and see what people say.

I know that "it depends" answers suck, but they are often the truth.

[efficacy]

My vote is that 3-betting is a major spew. With no reads I usually assume TAG stats for my opponents until proven otherwise. If we give UTG+1 an 18% opening range, we have about 46% equity vs UTG+1, but also have 3 players after us yet to act.

[sethypooh21]

Unless his PFR is like 25 or higher, A8s is a pretty easy fold here. A9s is closer, and probably 3-betting if A) villain is aggro PF (18+ish pfr), but not especially SD bound, B) blinds are reasonably tight.

[efficacy]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless his PFR is like 25 or higher, A8s is a pretty easy fold here. A9s is closer, and probably 3-betting if A) villain is aggro PF (18+ish pfr), but not especially SD bound, B) blinds are reasonably tight.

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So, what do you do without any reads, as stated in the OP?

[thepizzlefosho]

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Unless his PFR is like 25 or higher, A8s is a pretty easy fold here. A9s is closer, and probably 3-betting if A) villain is aggro PF (18+ish pfr), but not especially SD bound, B) blinds are reasonably tight.

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So, what do you do without any reads, as stated in the OP?

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without any read I fold.

[sethypooh21]

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[ QUOTE ]
Unless his PFR is like 25 or higher, A8s is a pretty easy fold here. A9s is closer, and probably 3-betting if A) villain is aggro PF (18+ish pfr), but not especially SD bound, B) blinds are reasonably tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what do you do without any reads, as stated in the OP?

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without any read I fold.

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[efficacy]

I'm playing around with pokerstove. Let's say we get heads up with utg+1 for 3-bets each.

ASSUMING villain's range is TT-66,AQs-A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+

Here is our equity on some various types of flops:

nuts
AA8r: 98% [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ace rag rag
A32r: 80%

Eight rag rag
832r: 76%

Middle Pair
K82r: 62%
J82r: 59%
T82r: 59%
Q82r: 57%

No Pair raggedy flop
752r: 54%

No Pair, one paint card
J52r: 40%
K52r: 37%
Q52r: 36%

[OregonRogue]

No promise you're not getting capped Pf though

And I think your range is much to wide. Not many people I know are raising UTG+1 with 9xs, Qt, or Kt.

Against an unknown I'd go as low as 66+, ATs+, AT, KJs+, KJ, QJ.