A8s on button, 33 in BB

[RobA]

I'm now down $6500 in 210 hours at 20-40. Good times. I've never run this bad before. Spazzing in the blinds, and paying off on the river are a couple of possible leaks, I think (but am not sure). A couple of hands where I was put in spots involving these leaks; wanna know if they are bad, or atrocious.

Hand 1:

My table image at this point is tight, standard. I'm about even at this point, but i haven't seen a hand in about an hour. I'm on the button with A8s. 5 limps to me. I raise. (EP is villain in this hand. He keeps talking about how he plays 400-800 Omaha, and talking on his cell phone to his friends about how funny it is that he's slumming it at 20-40. When I raise he looks at me and says "thats the nuts", implying that i'm mr. tight.)

Flop KTT rainbow. 5 Checks to me, I bet. Villain calls, all else fold.

Turn J (no draw). He checks. Whats the best plan from here please?

Hand 2: Now i've moved seats, its about 2 hours later. My image at this point is uber-tight, probably weak, becuase I give up my blind, and my button easily becuase I only see 83o, and 92o. (I know all of Stox's standard defend/re-steal hands, just haven't seen one chance to use them all day). So, I'm just an empty seat that folds, and I'm down about $500 for the session.

I have 33 in BB. EP limps (guys that said he hasn't had a losing session in weeks, seems decent). MP limps (worst player at the table - limped with J2s, cold calls raises with QJo, KJo); LP raises (I assume he playes fairly standard becuase he's talking 2+2 talk). I call, all call.

Flop 9, 5, 2 rainbow, check/check/check to LP who bets - what's best line from here, and how much better is one option or another?

Thank you for your comments.

[surfdoc]

Hand 1: you are actually allowed to limp preflop. You have a nice multiway hand and maybe the equity to raise but when running a little rough you are allowed to see a flop cheap with this hand and make things a little simpler. Once the baller calls your flop raise I think you need to give up. That board hits pretty firmly on his range and the jack is maybe the worst card in the deck since his straght draws are now there or he picked up a pair. You will have to 3 barrel to get him off and even then he may get stubborn since high limit players don't fold. You are also getting CRd a lot on this turn. I wouldn't be too sad if you fired a second shell on this turn but I think giving up is a little better. I wave to the dealer one more card please.

Hand 2: I think you need to just release it here on the flop. 4 players and you have a big parlay to hope all of the limpers fold whatever and the preflop raiser has overcards and misses.

[Moneyball16]

Hand 1

I like the raise on hand one preflop cause of our position and our hand plays well multiway, but I would check behind on the flop. Its 6 people to the flop dude. As played I would check for the same reasons surfdoc said. J hits all the straight draws.

What would you guys do on a blank turn card here?

Hand 2

Give it up. The pfr isnt going to be betting 100% of his hands here since the flop is 5 ways and you still have 3 people left to act behind you.

[andyfox]

Hand 1: "Running a little rough" should have very little to do with whether or not he raises this hand preflop. It sounds crazy, but you have a better chance to narrow down the field by betting on the flop when you've raised preflop and created a bigger pot because they're sure you have the goods since you raised preflop. I think not raising preflop with, say A-Ts is a big mistake; with A-9s slightly less so; and with A-8s still -EV.

I'd sure check the turn here because I'd want the chance to hit a straight without the guy check-raising me out of the hand. The guy's probably playing this game for the fun of check-raising anyway.

2nd hand: Sometimes I'll check-raise here, sometimes fold. Depends on whether I can get a vibe of disinterest from the others who checked. In 20-40, many players will automatically check to the pre-flop raiser no matter what they flop, so that would put more emphasis on folding rather than check-raising. In general, when you play a small pocket pair in a multi-way pot in 20-40 or lower, if you always put it in the muck unless you flop a set or an open-end straight draw, you probably can't go too wrong.

[Jeffage]

Hand 1: Check behind on the turn - he either has you beat with a king or a ten or that jack hit his open end straight draw (pairing him) and he won't be folding. Even if he has something like 77, he sounds like the type that will call you down and hope you have AQ. All signs say check to me and probably fold the river if he bets in most cases. I'm also not wild about your preflop raise but I'm sure others will disagree.

Hand 2: I would check-fold that flop with two opponents in between me and the preflop raiser.

Jeff

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: "Running a little rough" should have very little to do with whether or not he raises this hand preflop. It sounds crazy, but you have a better chance to narrow down the field by betting on the flop when you've raised preflop and created a bigger pot because they're sure you have the goods since you raised preflop. I think not raising preflop with, say A-Ts is a big mistake; with A-9s slightly less so; and with A-8s still -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think that we may have to disagree here. I am not sure if you are saying that raising here with A8s is clearly the superior play preflop. I am not arguing that you should pass up on +EV spots. I am just simply saying that there are some variance lowering plays that can be mixed in when the edge is so razor thin that it might not exist. I also know for a fact that the OP tends to play too aggressively so I was trying to let him know that he can pull his foot off the gas from time to time. Finally, I think that hero (admittedly) has a bit of work to do on his post flop play and for that reason he may be better off sneaking into some pots cheaply and playing smaller pots with marginal holdings.

As far as you getting to "narrow down the field by betting on the flop" I say that is very debatable as well. I don't think you have much fold equity in these lower limit games and you have bloated the pot where it is correct for them to peel with 5 out hands and overcard stuff on many boards. The fact that hero raised preflop may make it easier to represent a hand on certain boards but it can actually be harder on others. He can represent on the flop after limping just as easily since it is so common for the pfr to con-bet and this really only says "I was the pfr so I bet" as compared to when he bets the flop after limping the message is "I hit the board." I seriously doubt that these guys assume he "has the goods" just because he raised preflop.

[andyfox]

I am positive that in the 20-40 at Commerce players will perversely fold more often for one small bet on the flop when the pre-flop raiser bets more often than they would with exactly the same board and hole cards when the flop bettor did not raise pre-flop. They don't know from equity or bloated pots or correct-to-peelness. They know the guy raised and bet again and they have nothing. I have played a fair amount in the 20-40 there in recent months and it's a truism. It's also true that they will "check to the raiser" very often.

Hero has the button and a suited ace. That's not the spot I would prefer to use to lower variance or reduce pre-flop aggression.

[pohuist]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Check behind on the turn - he either has you beat with a king or a ten or that jack hit his open end straight draw (pairing him) and he won't be folding. Even if he has something like 77, he sounds like the type that will call you down and hope you have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be nitpicking, but AQ just hit Broadway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand 1 -- raise p/f, bet flop, bet/fold turn. You have only 1 opponent, the board is just as scary to him, I don't think he would c/r w/out very strong hand. He folds small pairs and A-x hands that beat/tie you for your turn bet, and your bet might buy you a free showdown if he calls.

Hand 2 is a fold. If you can't get a hand in an hour, take a break, get a smoke or some food, walk around, come back 15 minutes later.

[MitchL]

Hand 1: check behind on flop.

Hand 2: fold.

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]


Hand 1 -- raise p/f, bet flop, bet/fold turn. You have only 1 opponent, the board is just as scary to him, I don't think he would c/r w/out very strong hand. He folds small pairs and A-x hands that beat/tie you for your turn bet, and your bet might buy you a free showdown if he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop is KTT, what kinds of hands do you think he peels with? Sure 77 and 88 are possibilities but its just more likely he peeled w/a hand like Q9, QJ, J9, JT, QT, 9T or some other hand that just pair up or hit a strait. You're getting c/r'ed or called here way too often for a bet to be proftitable. Check behind and try to draw out. Another reason I don't like betting is that we have now picked up a gutshot and if we get c/r'ed we hate ourselves even more. Like surdoc said, check behind