Sunday Million Open Push; Standard or Retarded?

[0evg0]

cero,

From posts in HSNL, you are good at poker.

Therefore, there is absolutely nothing of value in HOH that you didn't already understand, and anything you may have "learned" from that book would probably be best served forgotten.

If I had to calculate my M at any point in a tournament, it would probably take me about 2-3 minutes so that I could remember the formula. Honestly, it's that unimportant.

In time you'll come to learn when pushes are correct simply by feel, but until then, understand that if you are open-pushing a stack of over 12xbb in any weekly online tournament, there is a very, very good chance that you are making a mistake.

Also, betgo wasn't really insulting you. There will be a High Stakes MTT Forum, and there was talk of having it be invite-only. It was assumed most any HSNL poster who wanted to post a thread would be approved. Betgo was saying you are probably an example of one HSNLer who would not/should not be.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those OPs the invite only rule is designed to keep out of HSNL.

First of all, if there is 6K is the pot on Stars, the blinds must be 1500/3000. You probably had 17xBB, which makes the push not as bad as it seemed initially.

Second of all, there is nothing wrong with M. However, an M of 9 sounds small, but it doesn't mean you should start open pushing any two. People are always justifying donk pushes like this by saying they have an M of 9 or whatever.

Open pushing here with 17xBB is playable with AJ or 33 or something, but not with 76s. Folding or raising 3xBB or less (and obviously folding to a reraise) are both playable.

Limping may be playable depending on your style and the players to act. Your stack size is better for limping than raising, but CO is not good position for a limp.

I would probably fold, since the play figures to be loose with the cash bubble being cleared fairly recently, and your stack size makes it easy for people to resteal on you.

In summary fold > small raise > limp > large raise > push. It is pretty close whether to raise or fold, but pushing is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK Good post. Your comment about "invite-only HSNL" is confusing: are you saying that having an invite-only forum is a bad idea because honest newb questions need a place to go? If so, it's a bad analogy, since there are Micro-stakes, SSNL, and MSNL which can accomodate them. I looked for a beginner's MTT forum, but there appears to be none. Or maybe you're just being a dick and calling me a newb. In any case, you answered my question, so thank you.

My understanding of Harrington's approach is that as your M dwindles to below 10, you need to make these kinds of shoves to keep from dipping down to 5 or so. Folded to me in the CO with stacks that can all be eliminated or severely damaged when I shove seems like a spot to try it. These pushes feel weird to me, because I play cash NL, but I make them because of HoH. Many of you are saying this is a terrible push, but of course I don't know anyone's names except for Curtains and betgo, who seem to disagree somewhat (though both said the push was bad). Can you point me to a thread about "M" and why it should or shouldn't be used to make decisions like this?

Finally, I didn't open-push with "any 2." You said pushing is fine there with AJ or 33, but not 76s. All 3 of those hands have similar equity vs. the two calling ranges I listed. AJ and 76s are basically the same (~30%), while 33 is slightly better vs. the looser range (34%). Is this just a mistake on your part, or are those differences (between 33 and the other 2 hands) significant?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was against making HSMTT invitation only, but I thought your post was an example of a newb post from the sunday Million that making it invitation only was designed to keep out. I didn't know that you are a high stakes cash player. I speaking truthfully and somewhat humorously, but I can understand how you might take it as insulting.

76s has a much lower win percentage against a top 10% hand than 33 or AJo, which is why you can't overbet push it.

I don't know if you have been reading Harrington or Snyder. Snyder seems to advocate this kind of overbet push from CO. If you have more than 12xBB, you usually have better plays than an overbet push. Harrington advocates playing more loose/aggressive with an M of 9, but not overbet open pushing. I would reread HOH2 on this.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

890,398,080 games 0.005 secs 178,079,616,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.717% 33.46% 00.26% 297908568 2303656.00 { 76s }
Hand 1: 66.283% 66.02% 00.26% 587882200 2303656.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }


---

2,157,503,040 games 0.005 secs 431,500,608,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.366% 38.27% 05.09% 825741456 109884162.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 56.634% 51.54% 05.09% 1111993260 109884162.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }


---
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,335,597,120 games 0.005 secs 267,119,424,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.696% 40.38% 00.32% 539279664 4249278.00 { 33 }
Hand 1: 59.304% 58.99% 00.32% 787818900 4249278.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

[Pudge714]

cero,
If you want to get better at pushbotting I suggest getting SNGPT. A good way to look at openpushing is if I open raise here can I fold to a shove profitably. If the answer is yes, than open folding or raising 2.5x is a much better play.

[hamnegger]

make a standard raise as a steal fold if reraised you have enough chips to make a fold. if you had 16k then id shove and pray

[wpr101]

Just open normal. Shoving with greater than ~12 BBs here is bad.

[cero_z]

Thanks very much everyone.

[karlwig]

i think a normal 3x raise is more safe, and also look more like you actually have a hand. (all-in screams "please fold, please fold!"). I'm a bad player though.