Hugo Chavez Death Pool Thread

[NeBlis]

[ QUOTE ]
So is democracy the antithesis of freedom? You can't have it both ways.

You believe the US should ACTIVELY oppose democracy in a foreign nation whilst spurting rubish about socialism being the 'anthesis of freedom'.

[/ QUOTE ]


Since democracy does not automaticity equal freedom then it doesn't really matter.

While a democratic system will tend to be more free it is not necessarily an indicator of freedom.

People can be duped into voting for a great deal of freedom robbing ideas. In the case of Venezuela they have bee tricked or bullied into thinking that socialism is the answer.

Socialism IS in fact the antithesis of freedom.

I already know that you are a socialist so we don't need to have a whole rehash of your beliefs. ok? I am totally fine with you being wrong, as long as you are and don't really have the time to teach you what your going to learn in the process of getting your Poli Sci degree.

[boracay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So is democracy the antithesis of freedom? You can't have it both ways.

You believe the US should ACTIVELY oppose democracy in a foreign nation whilst spurting rubish about socialism being the 'anthesis of freedom'.

[/ QUOTE ]


Since democracy does not automaticity equal freedom then it doesn't really matter.

While a democratic system will tend to be more free it is not necessarily an indicator of freedom.

People can be duped into voting for a great deal of freedom robbing ideas. In the case of Venezuela they have bee tricked or bullied into thinking that socialism is the answer.

Socialism IS in fact the antithesis of freedom.

I already know that you are a socialist so we don't need to have a whole rehash of your beliefs. ok? I am totally fine with you being wrong, as long as you are and don't really have the time to teach you what your going to learn in the process of getting your Poli Sci degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree socialism does not mean freedom.
And i hope most would agree interventionism or fascism has even less in common with freedom than socialism.
One thing is when people are tricked or bullied (obviously this doesn't happen in socialism only) and the other thing is when armies from thousands of miles away would want to dictate what freedom should natives have and start aggression and killings. It's sad noone mention this when talking about freedom.

[bdk3clash]

This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel and Palestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel and Palestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT.

[ConstantineX]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel andPalestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bdk3clash,

Is there something mistaken with the articles I link? Do you dispute that he's destroying his economy, like the FT article I linked describes? You can't find eggs and milk cheaply in Caracas - this doesn't rob poor people? Though economic crisis isn't as sexy as say, monk repression, he's probably going to kill more people through unsexy methods like starvation in the long run, as dictators who predicated economic crises have typically done. Even his vaunted "Bolivarian socialism" hasn't done anything to reduce the poverty rate from the time of his second coup, which the New York Times article noted. Do you dispute that he now he has a history of cronyism within his government? Look at the way the Times article describes the wasteful and shameful way he is destroying the public capital of his nation. Besides, if economic terrorism hasn't marked him already, the new Il Duce will be graduating to bigger and badder things soon.

Do you dispute he has a history of self-aggrandizement and puffery? He recently threated existing Spanish investments in Venezuela after King Juan Carlos I asked him to "shut up" after he interrupted Spanish socialists numerous times, describing a previous Spanish prime minister as a "fascist". What a reversal of an ancient paradigm - who is the imperialist master now? But I'm sure expropriating Spanish property - those vile Western governments! - was the new revealed revelation towards the aims of "social justice" rather than plain old "bald-faced theft" to our Steward of the People. Count me in as all for resurrecting hundred year-old claims when convenient - damn it, I want my billion dollar reparation settlement!

But then again you'll just link articles from Venezuelanalysis (the most blatant example of collective ideological blinders on the Internet at large) that describe how Chavez has the support of the people, faces Western opposition, and was democratically elected. Unfortunately those ideas are indisputable, much like they were indisputable when a popular thug named Robert Mugabe came to power in 1987. Are you not at all convinced by the fact New York Times is pushing front page articles critical of the man? I thought this was a veritable coup, myself. Who wants Khmer Rouge-like egg on their face?

[ConstantineX]

Soldiers, Lines & Price Controls, Oh My!

[zasterguava]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So is democracy the antithesis of freedom? You can't have it both ways.

You believe the US should ACTIVELY oppose democracy in a foreign nation whilst spurting rubish about socialism being the 'anthesis of freedom'.

[/ QUOTE ]


Since democracy does not automaticity equal freedom then it doesn't really matter.

While a democratic system will tend to be more free it is not necessarily an indicator of freedom.

People can be duped into voting for a great deal of freedom robbing ideas. In the case of Venezuela they have bee tricked or bullied into thinking that socialism is the answer.

Socialism IS in fact the antithesis of freedom.

I already know that you are a socialist so we don't need to have a whole rehash of your beliefs. ok? I am totally fine with you being wrong, as long as you are and don't really have the time to teach you what your going to learn in the process of getting your Poli Sci degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not a socialist and have never said I am. In fact I think my first post in the political forum stated that I had once been fond of democratic socialism but do not subscribe to it.