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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:43 PM
SoMarginal SoMarginal is offline
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Location: 1/2 LHE groupie
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Default Way ahead way behind scenario?

Sorry guys trying to make the switch from NL to LHE. Trying to get a line check here in what I view as a way ahead, way behind scenario. Here I'm thinking that if I'm ahead to a J then I want him to keep betting, yet if I'm behind to an A then I want to minimize my losses.

Is the flop check a mistake? Or do you think it induces actions from hands that are behind on the turn and the river?

Absolute Poker $1/$2 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

River: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:47 PM
mattnxtc mattnxtc is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

Bet the flop...hand plays a lot easier after that.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:50 PM
Realyn Realyn is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

bet flop bet turn check river

&gt;

check flop call turn call river

in limit u dont want to be the guy who calls, u want to bet.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:14 PM
NinaWilliams NinaWilliams is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

Yeah, bet the flop. You have the best hand often and the pot is too big to be giving cards.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:51 PM
numbnuts007 numbnuts007 is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

I bet this flop as well, but for the sake of discussion...

I was watching Dave Fromm's short handed video yesterday and he describes an almost idential situation except that instead of QQ, hero has KK. He suggests playing the hand the way op did. Fromm said, as op did, that this can induce bluffs. I tend to disagree, I actually thought about the fact that checking the flop after raising pf is often a sign of a monster and it might just make villian c/f the turn. Does anyone agree with Fromm and op? if so, convince me.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:53 PM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

checking four way on this flop isnt a sign of a monster

youd do the same with TT KQ etc so Jx is probably gonna bet the turn and lkely the river depending on what card falls / how many people call his turn bet
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:14 PM
SoMarginal SoMarginal is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

yea here I was trying to take a line from stox's book in the section playing when you "are way ahead or way behind but don't know which". Here he writes "for example QQ on a K83 flop...against aggressive opponents-particularly tight-aggressive-in this scenario, you should often play passively and check-call all 3 streets. The reason is if you did raise with the best hand, your opponent could make an easy fold, winning you the minimum when ahead, but losing you more when behind." (page 189)

I don't know how applicable this scenario is to a semi loose, mid day, low limit game. But because I had no reads or stats on villans, I figure that it would be best to assume that they are on the tighter side, and also on the more agro side. Because I assumed this I figured by checking the flop this would most often indicate multi-way to a thinking opponent that I did not have an Ace and that I would likely hold a mid pair, therefore he can bet his J or TT with confidence because he thinks he is value-betting, or perhaps he would be much more apt to try for a bluff, albeit multi way there is still a small possibility that he would go for a single or double barrel on the turn/river. As for the caller in between, I would think that he would raise an ace somewhere along the line between the flop and the river, so I can rule out that he holds that. That was my reasoning going through this hand. Is my logic faulty in this application?

edit: I did not note that Stox recommended check-call, obv. meaning playing OOP, I/P I assume the line of firing out all three streets is good HU but is it the optimal line multiway?
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:18 PM
numbnuts007 numbnuts007 is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

[ QUOTE ]
checking four way on this flop isnt a sign of a monster

youd do the same with TT KQ etc so Jx is probably gonna bet the turn and lkely the river depending on what card falls / how many people call his turn bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally true and I didn't even think about the number of players. I must have been so excited that I was thinking about such a similar situation yesterday. OP, WA/WB lines are typically reserved for HU situations, I'll think stox mentions that in the chapter you quoted. You can't let that many people draw to 2 pair or trips for free, and a K on the turn just makes you vomit. Bet flop fo' sho'.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:20 PM
SoMarginal SoMarginal is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

Thank you all for your lines with this hand, really helps the learning process and makes the transition much easier.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:32 PM
StellarWind StellarWind is offline
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Default Re: Way ahead way behind scenario?

Show some respect for the size of the pot. There are six gutshots and a high middle pair on the flop. You are also exposed to anyone with a king. You cannot give all these hands a free card.

Checking may also cause you to lose control. You won't know what it means if someone seizes the initiative and you may make a terrible mistake. Betting the ace on the flop should keep everyone honest. If someone plays back you know what that means.

You can reevaluate on the turn. If you get several serious-looking callers it's often good to take a free card and watch the river action.
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