Every street debatable

[acehole60]

I play it the same. If a scare card hits the turn I just c/c down and let him bluff.

[Palomino]

I c/c all streets here against this villain. His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand. I don't think you can fold the river here...just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

[Tryptamean]

really dislike the flop c/r. accomplishes very little

[vmacosta]

i have no problem with c/r the flop. You will get called down by A-hi/22-55 all the time. If a bad turn card falls this guy seems bad enough that c/c'ing down won't be terrible.

Also see merits in c/c, but if you are the type to get agro with lots of draws on this flop then it's not like it's *clearly* the best choice.

[StellarWind]

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His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand.

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He probably has 33 or 54. Or maybe he has a normal turn raise but waited for the river for some fishy reason.

[ QUOTE ]
just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is silly. You call or fold based on pot odds and your chance of winning.

Do you really think you can make up a significant fraction of a lost BB just by seeing this one hand? Then think how much money you could make by carefully watching the table and making notes on all the hands you are not involved in. In a hundred hands you would have many dozens of good notes and you would be rich. No more multitabling--just play one table, watch carefully, take lots of notes, and make 10+ BB/100.

Reads are valuable but don't overrate them. Reads don't matter unless they cause you to make a different decision than you otherwise would have made. Let's look at the process:

1. Most decisions can be correctly made by assuming an average opponent and using basic poker skills.

2. Most of the mistakes caused by assuming an average opponent can be corrected by using Villain's stats in place of an average opponent.

That doesn't leave many opportunities to improve your decisions by using reads. Furthermore using the result of a single hand to overrule stats is a tricky business. One hand is the ultimate small sample. It's very rare that I would allow the result of one hand to change my decision unless the decision was close. But close decisions by definition don't matter very much.

I know this is heresy but online poker is not poker. The received wisdom of our B&M forefathers is that watching the table is all-important and reads are crucial. But they don't use reads the way we use them. They use their reads to do many basic things that our HUDs do for us. Plus they play the same small group of opponents for hours, days, and weeks. Given the small sample size given in OP this Villain is very unlikely to be a regular. The odds are he'll be gone forever before you get another 100 hands in against him.

[Palomino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
He probably has 33 or 54. Or maybe he has a normal turn raise but waited for the river for some fishy reason.

[ QUOTE ]
just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is silly. You call or fold based on pot odds and your chance of winning.

Do you really think you can make up a significant fraction of a lost BB just by seeing this one hand? Then think how much money you could make by carefully watching the table and making notes on all the hands you are not involved in. In a hundred hands you would have many dozens of good notes and you would be rich. No more multitabling--just play one table, watch carefully, take lots of notes, and make 10+ BB/100.

Reads are valuable but don't overrate them. Reads don't matter unless they cause you to make a different decision than you otherwise would have made. Let's look at the process:

1. Most decisions can be correctly made by assuming an average opponent and using basic poker skills.

2. Most of the mistakes caused by assuming an average opponent can be corrected by using Villain's stats in place of an average opponent.

That doesn't leave many opportunities to improve your decisions by using reads. Furthermore using the result of a single hand to overrule stats is a tricky business. One hand is the ultimate small sample. It's very rare that I would allow the result of one hand to change my decision unless the decision was close. But close decisions by definition don't matter very much.

I know this is heresy but online poker is not poker. The received wisdom of our B&M forefathers is that watching the table is all-important and reads are crucial. But they don't use reads the way we use them. They use their reads to do many basic things that our HUDs do for us. Plus they play the same small group of opponents for hours, days, and weeks. Given the small sample size given in OP this Villain is very unlikely to be a regular. The odds are he'll be gone forever before you get another 100 hands in against him.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK, let me clarify. I would still fold if I had a hand that had no SD value at all, but combined with the hand that I have, the way the hand was played and the opponent we are up against I like a call. Seeing what the hell he played in the manner is just an added benefit.

[MacGuyV]

Looks pretty standard from here. I guess the river is an unlikely bluff since it's the biggest brick ever.

[bobhalford]

I'm not sure I like the river call. If button doesn't have a 7, 54, or 33, he's got to fear that you have a 7 or a King. So he doesn't expect you to fold this river. That means that all you beat is a bluff, and I can't imagine him picking this spot to do it. That said, there are busted heart draws, A3, or complete air that he could pull this off with 10% of the time, which is all you need to call. So calling can't be much of a mistake.

The flop play interests me. Since this was a steal raise preflop, I don't see how we are necessarily losing. Villain should have 6 outs usually, and sometimes we have him drawing to two outs. We would like to charge villain to hit his 6 outer on the river (by c/r flop) instead of allowing him to take a free card on the turn when we just c/c flop.

I'd like to hear more analysis of this flop/turn play, because this situation comes up pretty often. If we c/c and he bets the turn with AQ, QJ, Ax, we have to consider folding the best hand. Or else, we risk giving a free card to these hands that are drawing pretty slim. Perhaps if a brick turned, we could donk/fold it to prevent villain from checking behind? So perhaps another line could be c/c, b/f, ?/?

Since villain is a LAG, we run the risk of getting raised on the turn by an inferior hand when we c/r the flop, forcing us to make a mistake the times we fold.

Seems like c/c and c/r the flop each present difficulties on how to approach the turn.

As an alternative, I suppose we can c/c, c/c, c/f. Or else c/c and then bet the river when villain takes a free card on the turn.

[TheHip41]

this guy is going to charge himself to draw on the turn.

i just c/c down, and With that turn and river, i'm not folding.

As played, you are probably smoked on the river, but I can't see how you can fold.

[MacGuyV]

WTF @ all this c/c down stuff? This retard 3bets everything but a K. Checkraise/cap ftw.