High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews

[limon]

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limon,

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when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

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While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

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yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

[Aloysius]

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limon,

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when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

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While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

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yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

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Haven't been to Grace yet, really want to check it out. I think Campanile is the closest I've had to a "10" meal in LA. Jar is excellent and just introduced a fantastic oxtail entree.

Here's a review of AOC I posted a while back in OOT.

One perfect meal I've had was at Montrachet in Tribeca.

-Al

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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By high-end, I'd like to restrict discussion to places where you can very reasonably expect your bill for food only to be >$75 (pre tax and tip).

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Do you really mean high end by this? You have restaurants that are not extraordinary at all in many European cities where you end up paying more (maybe it is cheaper in the US). At $75 I expect a good, nice meal, but not anything super special.

Up the limit to >$200 and then you can start to expect something. At $200 I expect:
-Attention. Quick service, but also waiter who not as default tries to get away from the table, but as default talks a bit about the food, what's going on with ingredients and such. A waiter who doesn't really try sell you anything or speed up the ordering process, you order whenever it suits you. Also not some pretensious [censored] who is more busy showing off his knowledge than actually making sure you have a great experience.
-Not nitty. If it gets into the $500-range or so including wine and drinks I like that they serve you some delicious snack while you wait for the appetizer, serve you a welcome drink etc. and do not put in on the bill. It is not because I am cheap, I can pay for it, just makes the atmosphere nicer, you get to try some small pieces of some exclusive food or drink without risking anything.
-Perfect ingredients, the food can be a bit too hot or a bit too cold or a bit too cooked or whatever for your taste, they aren't psychics, but the ingredients should be 100% perfect, for not doing this there is no excuse.
-Also I expect them to have relatively unique dishes, must be a chef who has spent much time finding some new combinations or something to put the food up one notch and also in combination with the waiter makes sure that the wholeness with wine, dishes and drinks you order and wine, dishes and drinks they served you anyway makes perfect. I.e. avoid the situation where you sit and drink some wine and then they serve you a new dish that doesn't suit that wine and then a new wine. Make sure I/we are at the right wine, then serve the food.
-Zero questions policy. Ok, I say I didn't want that dish, then bring it back and give me whatever I think I ordered. If I figure out that I would like to walk home instead of taking the taxi just cancel the taxi and pay the driver to shut up (I put an extra $20 tip for that anyway). Don't discuss what was said/done or defend yourself, I hold no grudge, just want to have a perfect night. In all, don't do anything such that destroys the harmony, leaving the door too long open so that it gets cold or whatever.

It has lived up to expectations in that price range, however in the $75 to $200 there have been plenty of disappointments, that's why I put the mark higher.

[NajdorfDefense]

I'm open to and eat at both, but prefer the 'best-in-class' to the more 'experimental' dining, for example Daniel > WD-40. To me, Service is clearly the differentiating factor btw two great restaurants, once you get above a certain level of french food, or spanish, or italian, or chinese, it becomes very hard to differentiate btw the quality of a Jean-George, a Daniel, a Bouley, a Robuchon, a Keller, etc, unless you are a true gourmand. Decor is also a factor, but again at these places they are all done up so that may come down to personal taste - do you like Cafe Des Artistes or a per se, or the Four Seasons.

Daniel was the best dining experience I've ever had [2x.], whether in NYC, LV, LA, Philly, Barca or elsewhere. Marcus, the host, remembered me when we entered from one prior visit, knew exactly why we were there w/o being told again [birthday], the service was beyond exquisite, the waiters were incredibly attentive and yet invisible, they could write you a book on each dish on the menu. The food is rated 2nd best in all of NYC by Zagat's, so I'll just agree that it is flawless, the sommelier can answer any question about wine {I've been with oenophiles} and the dessert is simply the best I've ever tasted.
While the decor is the best in town, the service really makes it stand out. They must have like 4-6 people per table, not including everyone you don't see, of course, and never intrusive. Obviously, you can sit there all night and not feel hurried in any sense [not true of some places!].
Bonus: As we were approaching the coat-check, we met Daniel Boulud and told him how much we loved our dinners. He took us to the bar and wanted to know all about it, and had a drink with us before returning to the kitchen.

Other faves: Alain Ducasse, Le Bec-fin, Drolma.

[M2d]

are you talking >75 if you order every course? my favorite bay area restaurants (oliveto's, postrio, piperade, etc) are easily under this if i eat normally (a salad or appetizer, main meal dessert), but might squeek by over the line if I get all courses. maybe i'm just a slob, but as far as service, food quality and, server knowledge, selection, and innovation, i can't find much wrong with these places.
otoh, the handfull of >75 restaurants i've been to (french laundry, danko, etc) have had this as well, but also a certain something extra. maybe a closer attention to detail in the presentation, or a little more experimentation in using offbeat local ingredients in non-traditional manners.

since i had my son, though, i've been more into the double secret hole in the wall places.

[lapoker17]

i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

[limon]

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i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

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le bec in philly is my wifes fav restuarant on the planet. she gets a $90 truffled risoto appetizer and bernard meets her at the table and says its better than sex w/ her husband (me)

[El Diablo]

Claunchy,

Nice review. Delmonico's in Vegas is a perfect example imo of non-stuffy high-end dining. It's nice and classic and classy, while at the same time not feeling old. It's lit at a nice level, not too bright but not such that you have to squint to read the menus by the candle. The only black mark for this restaurant is the bathrooms. The men's is a pretty small restroom that is tucked in the back and is fine, but I expect it to be more perfect at a place like this. Service, as you mentioned, is great. You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time.

http://www.venetian.com/dining/menu_delmonicodinner.cfm

You really can't go wrong in the apps and soup/salad section. My personal favorites are the foie gras, the wilted spinach/fried mozzarella (basically the opposite of a salad), and tomato/onions/blue cheese plate.

For dinner the bone-in ribeye is definitely the way to go.

Every dessert I've tried has been great too.

[limon]

"You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time."

this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

[7ontheline]

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this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

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I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.