What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?

[RustyBrooks]

Now we get into the real nitty gritty, which a table of top 10 hands is no good for.

What's the situation? What's my position? Who's already acted? How many people can I expect to be in the pot? Any short stacks still to act?

Heads up, I'll take AK over AQs. Multiway I like AQs because it's only a little weaker in pair value but I'll have better drawing odds, or a better hand, multiway.

It's nice to speculate about good hands but there are situations where AQs or AK goes in the muck and there are situations where I'll glady raise QTo. There's good hands and then there's good (and bad) situations.

[JABoyd]

In general, people greatly over-value suited cards. Suited cards only outperform their unsuited cousins 3-4% of the time.

With all the money in the pot:

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
8-7 suited wins 23% of the time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
8-7 unsuited wins 19% of th time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
suited A wins 32% of the time

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] vs. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
unsuited A wins 29% of the time

Therefore, the main strength of a hand comes from the rank of the cards, not the suitedness.

*extracted from Phil Gordon's Little Green Book

[Vetgirig]

Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

Phil Gordon is correct in 2 ways:
-Many players will play any 2 cards - as long as they are of the same suit. These players chase flush draws - which is a bad idea.
- When less players are involved in a hand - high cards become more important and straight and flush draws decrease in value - one often don't get the odds to draw to them playing HU efter the flop.

[JABoyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

87s only has a 2.5% edge versus 87o heads up. Please explain where you get 21%?

[Nichlemn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well the difference between 19% and 23% wins is actually 4 units of % better and thus 87s will win 21% more than 87o. So 87s is better than 87o - but the difference is more apperant in multiway hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

87s only has a 2.5% edge versus 87o heads up. Please explain where you get 21%?

[/ QUOTE ]

52.5%-47.5% = 5% edge, not 2.5%.

23%/19% = 1.21, thus, 21% better. The point is that the approximately 5% of the time suited cards make a flush increases the percentage proportionally more at lower original equities, which occurs in multiway pots. Increasing your equity from 4% to 8% doubles your equity, whereas increasing high card value will have less of an effect. Also, it is more likely that the flush you make will be necessary to win.

For instance, AKs wins 21.9% of the time against eight random hands, whereas AKo will win 18.2% of the time. This is a 3.7% flush bonus. Against one random hand, AKs wins 67.0% of the time, whereas AKo wins 65.3% of the time. So not only does suitedness give a higher raw percentage advantage multiway (due to the times a AK unimproved beats a hand, or the TPTK was sufficient despite a flush) it also has a relatively bigger advantage.

[JABoyd]

I'm sorry, let me state that a little more clearly.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
52.5% vs. 47.5%

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
50% vs. 50%

52.5%-50%=2.5%
50%-47.5%=2.5%

Therefore, suited cards compared to (not versus) their unsuited cousins only have a 2.5% edge.

So the "maximum advantage" of plaing suited cards as opposed to the exact same rank cards unsuited is only 3%-4%. If any of that suit are out in other hands its even less.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
46.2% vs. 53.8%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
42.8% vs. 57.2%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
45.9% vs. 54.2%

[sh58]

3% is actually a pretty big edge in the long run.

hot and cold it is much better having suits than w/o

playability wise it is even better to have suits because they add so much equity

look at the actual equity differences in the post above

the equity gap is 7.6% in AKs v QQ and 14.4% with AKo v QQ

these are fairly large differences

[TyFuji]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, let me state that a little more clearly.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
52.5% vs. 47.5%

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
50% vs. 50%

52.5%-50%=2.5%
50%-47.5%=2.5%

Therefore, suited cards compared to (not versus) their unsuited cousins only have a 2.5% edge.

So the "maximum advantage" of plaing suited cards as opposed to the exact same rank cards unsuited is only 3%-4%. If any of that suit are out in other hands its even less.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
46.2% vs. 53.8%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
42.8% vs. 57.2%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
45.9% vs. 54.2%

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the question is the difference between suited and unsuited hands. Having 87s vs. a random hand provides about (2.5)*2 = 5% additional equity vs having 87o vs. a random hand. The difference is doubled because when you gain, your opponent loses proportionately, so the effect of taking a dollar from your opponent means a net gain of 2 dollars (If you each start with $50, you would have $51 and he $49). The reason he cited 20~% was that the 5% difference in equity represents about 1/4 of the original equity of the hand.

A concrete example:
You have 87o vs AA, all in for a $100 pot. You have 20% equity (I'm not sure what the real number is, the point still holds), which means that you own $20 and he owns $80 of the $100 in the pot: a $60 difference.
Now you have 87s vs. AA, all in for a $100 pot. You have 22.5% equity (estimate, again) which means that you own $22.5 and he owns $77.5: a $55 difference. Your suited cards netted you $5, a 20% gain compared to your original equity.

[TyFuji]

Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[JABoyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the advantage of "suitedness" is somewhat less quantifiable when you consider the playability of suited cards. 2-card flushes are almost always going to be the best hand, with considerable implied odds from strong non-nut hands. So that 5% difference in pot equity conceals the implied profit: If I had to go heads up against a range like AA-JJ, I would pay twice or three times as much preflop with 87s than I would with 87o, significantly more than the 5% difference when you talk about face-up all in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, PLEASE, PLLLLLEASE let me know where you play!! I want in that game in a BAD WAY!!