10-10 - - good flop - - too many opponenets?

Jon_AK · #1 08-12-2007, 07:15 PM

Have a look here at this, hit a very nice flop, got raised by the button who didn't preflop raise. Good move?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t1480)
BB (t1840)
Jon_AK (t1560)
UTG+1 (t1580)
MP1 (t1460)
MP2 (t1410)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1260)
Button (t1440)

Preflop: Jon_AK is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Jon_AK raises to t100, UTG+1 calls t100, 3 folds, CO raises to t180, Button calls t180, 2 folds, Jon_AK calls t80, UTG+1 calls t80.

Flop: (t750) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Jon_AK checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets t200, Jon_AK raises to t600, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Button raises to t1260, Jon_AK????

baltostar · #2 08-12-2007, 07:34 PM

I put villain on 44 99 TT(unlikely) JJ AK. You beat two, tie one, lose to two. Who knows what to do. Default fold.

helter skelter · #3 08-13-2007, 02:40 PM

I don't think you are necessarily beat. He could have any pocket pair or AK and bet thinking he had the best hand because everyone checked. I think there are some players who stubbornly hold on to that belief even after they have been c/r and decide to see a showdown.

With over 4-1 odds on the call, I think you would have to be more than 80% sure you were beat. I would call.

Pokerfarian · #4 08-13-2007, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I put villain on 44 99 TT(unlikely) JJ AK. You beat two, tie one, lose to two. Who knows what to do. Default fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is villians range then you absolutely must shove your chips in the middle with those odds. I don't think its that accurate a range, but I think I get my chips in anyway

BarryLyndon · #5 08-13-2007, 02:53 PM

OK, so, first of all, your raise preflop is atrocious. 2.5X to 3XBB is the standard. There's a reason for that, and it has to do with your position. FWIW, even in MP or CO, I'm usually raising 3.5xBB or something. 5X is terrible.

Secondly, when I don't know what the [censored] is going on in a multiway with a good but not great hand, my default is to fold. I mean, look at what happened - first of all, CO's raise to 180 deserves a hearty bitch slap, but that's beside the point. Sometimes this raise to 180 means that he's some old guy from Florida who has AA. Other times, it means that he has KQ and isn't sure. Or maybe it's an 18 year old who is excited to have porn, poker, and a credit card all at his disposal with 99. I don't know.

On the flop, I'm entirely too confused with what is going on here. But, as played, either fold to the bet of 200 or CR with the intention of getting it in against a supercute button who thinks that 99/AK is the [censored] here. Those two hands are in his range, as it a set of 4s, A8, 98, 87, 86s, 88, and JJ. I'll give him credit for QQ+ being an RR and put that at a lower end of his range.

So, I probably fold here and chalk it up as a small loss rather than go for the juglar.

Barry

Pokerfarian · #6 08-13-2007, 02:56 PM

I think preflop is fine...Harrington is like God and he was fine with raising 5x UTG with TT

Jon_AK · #7 08-13-2007, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think preflop is fine...Harrington is like God and he was fine with raising 5x UTG with TT

[/ QUOTE ]
that is where I got my preflop method from [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Although I'm starting to to discover that a 3x BB raise is taken more seriously than a 5x BB raise. Oh btw - - button=donk, he had KK after I called.

helter skelter · #8 08-13-2007, 05:20 PM

I guess he was the old guy from Florida [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

footnbaseball · #9 08-13-2007, 05:21 PM

This seems like a call on the flop to me? I feel like raising doesn't accomplish much, I'd rather keep the pot small when its pretty unclear where you stand. I realize that you will have coming up on 1/3 of you stack in the pot after calling, but I still like it better then pushing or folding.

chh · #10 08-13-2007, 05:39 PM

calling the flop looks terrible to me.
we will then be out of position with a pot as big as our stack, with a ton of overcards that might fall on the turn.

Essentially the decision is between folding to the 200 bet or deciding to stick it in.
The problem with sticking it in is that we have terrible relative position and someone might yet be slowplaying behind us (though unlikely in the case of CO, somewhat likely in the case of UTG+1).

That said with the PF raisor obviously disliking this flop and button being somewhat unlikely to have a hand that actually beats us (coldcalling the pf reraise kind of narrows down his range of likely holdings to AK, AQs, 44-jj, maybe a8s) I would probably still stick it in here considering that the pot is substantial and I've seen enough donkeys move at pots like that with AK or an underpair to the 8.