Phil Ivey Gossip

[NCAces]

A follow-up question to Blair and the others in the nothing untoward happened here crowd:

It seems to me the crux of the issue is, "can you, under golf gambling rules, tell an outright lie during the negotiations."

As an example, I'll use a hustle we have all heard before. I go up to Tiger and tell him and can outdrive him - my 9 iron to his driver. He agrees. He drives the ball 300 yards. I turn around and hit my 9 iron a mile down the road that leads away from the course. Fair hustle ... we never agreed that I had to hit it into the fairway or the range.

Now, let's say that Tiger says, "I agree, so long as you hit the ball in the fairway or onto the range." I agree. He hits his drive, and then I turn around hit it down the road. When I tell him to pay up he tells me that we agreed that I would hit it in the fairway. I say, tough, I lied ... that's part of golf gambling rules.

I believe that was where the poster's shooting you in the leg argument comes from. To frame the issue, we can all agree I can't shoot you in the leg, break all your clubs, run you over with the cart. And, we can all agree that you can say that you haven't been playing too well lately, or perhaps that "my game has been down." But, can I actually tell a bold-faced lie?

Finally, let's say I come into Vegas and set up a game. The folks ask what my handicap is and I tell them I am a bogey golfer, when in fact I am a scratch golfer (hypothetical ... I was a 13 at the best time in my life). They can choose not to believe me and not wager on the round, and they might insist on calling a buddy or something. But they don't, they give me 12 strokes, and I win 16 holes for 800K. Are you going to tell them that it was their fault for taking the bet? What are the chances of me not having my legs broken, let alone getting paid? I am guessing not good.

NCAces

[GiantWalleye]

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I don't know if this is helpful, and but here's the Travel + Leisure Golf article alluded to upthread, detailing the $50k/hole match Russ Hamilton played with Kasey Thompson last year:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgo...f-the-hustlers

It may shed a little light on golf wagering at these stakes, and if nothing else, it's a pretty good read in its own right.

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Wow this was a great read. Thx for posting it.

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+1

My favorite part is at the end when the cart attendants asked how the round went and the losing player replied "I lost a house" " A nice house too".

[fungaimike56]

I wonder if E-Dog saw an opportunity here to stick it to Ivey because otherwise what on earth is he doing in there? Think about it. These guys go off for a million and their 'appeal' hangs on the testimony, E-Dog's, of a guy who wasn't even there! He needs this? 'You guys settle this among yourselves and leave me out of it' would be a normal response. But if he wanted to stir the pot...just wondering?

[Blair Rodman]

The point of all this is that there are at least 3 different golf arenas:

1) The professional or scratch arena where there are no handicaps and all the rules and traditions of golf apply.

2) The world of handicap golf. This encompasses sanctioned amateur tournaments, private amateur tournaments, and friendly wagering among golfers who keep handicaps and use them as a basis for making wagers. Sandbagging, or lying about handicaps, is considered cheating in this arena. However, it is a far too common practice, especially in certain parts of the U.S, notably Palm Springs, Dallas and Vegas (although I found it far worse in Palm Springs). Sandbaggers also tend to play fast and loose with the established rules of golf.

3) The world of serious golf gambling. This is the subject of this thread. Too many here are confusing these different arenas, including, possibly, Ivey’s victims. The golf gambling world is a world unto itself. Some areas of difference:

-There are no established handicaps. In this world they have no significance. If someone were to pull out a forged handicap card, they’d get laughed off the tee. No one would believe them. Games are made on the basis of negotiation. This is fully a part of the game, perhaps the most important one. Negotiations are made on the basis of past experience and gathered intelligence. The more diligent you are in gathering intelligence, the better chance you have of getting the best of the negotiations. Lying is part of the negotiation process. Just as bluffing is in poker. When my group meets before playing, we all tells our lies, fake our pains, etc, laugh about it and then get on with the real talks. For the most part, our games are already set from previous experience and adjustments. This is a matter of necessity, because otherwise we might never tee off. However, there are usually some team bets or other odd wagers negotiated to make it more interesting. If you are out-negotiated, you accept it and go on.

For big money matches, the negotiation process is more involved, with more involved intelligence gathering. Asking opinions from other players who are respected for their match-handicapping ability is common. Often people not playing in the match will have action on one side or the other and will come out to sweat the match and maybe make more side bets. Watching respected handicappers closely as far as who they want to bet on which side can give clues as to the balance of the match.

-There are established rules and protocols. They are just different from the other golf arenas. Often specific things, such as how to play a ball if it’s hit into the desert, are negotiated. The fact that practices such as using grease (which does help high handicappers, BTW) carrying more than 14 clubs, etc, are verboten in the other golf arenas means nothing. However, the rules that are establishes must be followed. (Occasionally the stipulation will be that actual golf rules are followed). To do differently is cheating, and cheaters will be ostracized. It’s silly to say that shooting someone or even moving a ball when it’s against the rules is fair game. Golf gambling isn’t golf per se. The game is just a means of gambling, just as a deck of cards or a pair of dice. The rules evolve to facilitate the gambling, but the rules of the day must be followed.

This thread is a perfect example of people living in different worlds and not understanding others than their own. I think one of the things that is obvious from this thread is that people from outside the US are more traditional than Americans and have trouble fully comprehending the golf gambling arena as practiced by Americans. It’s possible that Ivey’s non-American victims didn’t fully understand which arena Phil was playing in. But, I think they did. Here’s a quote from Goodwin;

"tomorrow we head off with Phil Ivey and Gus Hanson for a high stakes golf match with my partner in crime Ram Vaswani. One round of golf is worth a year’s winnings on the Europen Tour so, as you can imagine, some serious verbal takes place, with all sides trying to negotiate the best handicap - the reason we win is that Ram is different class at winding up Mr Ivey."

To me it’s obvious that they simply lost the negotiation game. They made a bad game, and then compounded the mistake by agreeing to a no-adjustment stipulation, thereby not leaving themselves an out. To get mad is one thing. To not pay is another. I think they’ll pay. They are gamblers and there’s a code. Whether they’ll play with Phil again is another question.

There is a real question of being able to move seamlessly from world to world without the lines becoming blurred. Very similar to poker. Bluffing is basically lying. Does this mean that all poker players are liars away from the table? Of course not—some may be, some not. Is someone who lies in a golf negotiation in the gambling world a liar otherwise? No, he’s simply playing the game by the rules. However, if he carried this over to the handicap golf arena, he’d be a liar and a cheat in that world.

The motto of this story—know what game you are playing before you play it.

[Orlando Salazar]

that article rocked, and i've never even played Tiger Woods Golf on my playstation, much less teed* off

[disjunction]

Blair,

Nice posts.

If you haven't seen it, check out limon's sweet OOT thread on hustling golf.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

[NCAces]

Blair ...

Great post. Your posts, along with that article about Hanson, makes sense to me now. The quote from the losers that there was going to be some serious negotiations is seriously damning for them.

Question ... since one of the losers walked off the course, what do the rules of serious golf gambling say about that?

NCAces

[fatshaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Blair ...

Great post. Your posts, along with that article about Hanson, makes sense to me now. The quote from the losers that there was going to be some serious negotiations is seriously damning for them.

Question ... since one of the losers walked off the course, what do the rules of serious golf gambling say about that?

NCAces

[/ QUOTE ]He didnt, he makes it clear on Blonde that this part of the rumour was made up. The full round was completed.

Blair makes a few good points, and I admit ignorance of the "gambling game" he cites.

However I would put a lot of money on the fact that none of the cheats he mentions were ever in play in previous games, Ram is a 5, Marc scratch, I bet other than what the strokes were going to be, there were no other non-standard rules being played.

[NCAces]

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Blair ...

Great post. Your posts, along with that article about Hanson, makes sense to me now. The quote from the losers that there was going to be some serious negotiations is seriously damning for them.

Question ... since one of the losers walked off the course, what do the rules of serious golf gambling say about that?

NCAces

[/ QUOTE ]He didnt, he makes it clear on Blonde that this part of the rumour was made up. The full round was completed.

Blair makes a few good points, and I admit ignorance of the "gambling game" he cites.

However I would put a lot of money on the fact that none of the cheats he mentions were ever in play in previous games, Ram is a 5, Marc scratch, I bet other than what the strokes were going to be, there were no other non-standard rules being played.

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According to what Blair is saying, their handicaps are not relevant to what they knew or didn't know. Someone with a middling handicap (say because they are short off the tee) who has a killer sand game, and can always get up and down in two, may be a successful golf hustler if he can negotiate the game so that he is rewarded for sandies and greenies to the extent that the hustle is +EV.

While the golf game that Blair describes is not known to you, or to me until Blair's posts and the article sited above, it makes total sense. Moreover, it is clear that Marc and Ram knew this ... their own words indicate that the negotiating is going to be key.

Blair describes 3 worlds of golf wagering. I think it is clear that what Ivy did would be in controvention of the spirit if not rules of the first two - what you and I probably play, but not in the third which is where you one is when they play for $50K a hole. I am convinced.

NCAces

[Flacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blair ...

Great post. Your posts, along with that article about Hanson, makes sense to me now. The quote from the losers that there was going to be some serious negotiations is seriously damning for them.

Question ... since one of the losers walked off the course, what do the rules of serious golf gambling say about that?

NCAces

[/ QUOTE ]He didnt, he makes it clear on Blonde that this part of the rumour was made up. The full round was completed.

Blair makes a few good points, and I admit ignorance of the "gambling game" he cites.

However I would put a lot of money on the fact that none of the cheats he mentions were ever in play in previous games, Ram is a 5, Marc scratch, I bet other than what the strokes were going to be, there were no other non-standard rules being played.

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Don't bet on it. More often than not in these games theres is something out of the ordinary. Handicaps are irrelevant its all about the bets. There are scratch hustlers and 30 handicap hustlers and they will all play together under unconventional rules in these games. Took me along time to learn this.

They screwed up.