strat question, 10/20 scenario fixin big leaks yo

[Hobb]

10/20nl, h/j 1800$, button $1300, hero $2000. live.

folds around to Hijack, an ok slag player, a little too predictable, very wide pf range, relatively tight postflop
H/J raises to 80. Button (pf callin station) flats.

You sittin in SB with 63, raise to 300. BB folds, H/J calls, Button calls.

Question 1:
How often (if ever) do you find yourself in this spot (rr w/"trash" out of blinds)? What is wrong about arriving at this spot, and is anything good about it?

Question 2:
If you ever find yourself in this spot, (H/J with 1500 behind, button w/1000 behind, 1k in pot), what's your plan to the flop? is it HIGHLY flop dependent, MEDIUM, LOW?
i.e. maybe you plan to shove no matter what. maybe you plan to c/f to a bad flop. maybe you want to check dark and reassess, etc.

If flop is 654, what?
If flop is 622, what?
If flop is A62, what?
If flop is AKT, what?
If flop is KQ8, what? etc.


obviously feel free to ignore w/ever parts of questions... cause i would appreciate any input at all into this type of simple situation.. i feel like the answer should be simple but i believe I don't play it to maximum +ev

Random Question 3:
Is H/J call more dangerous than Button's (pretend they are unknowns)? What if H/J folds and B calls? Or if H/J calls and B folds?

ty sirs

[invid]

1) like you said hes got a wide range + button is going to be esp very wide cause of his position etc..only good thing is that you've concealed your garbage as long as you have a tight image atm..

2) you're out of position on the flop and i have a feeling you will hang yourself if you try to run a big bluff against 2 villains..i like a little pot sized bet to see where i stand on the flop..

642/622 flop, depending on if its rainbow or not, im coming out strong on those
A62 is ehh
AKT/KQ8 flops make me sick.. they got a good piece of that enough times here to make me not want to become tricky in this hand

[AZK]

I rarely if ever find myself in this spot when my opponents have less than 100xbb. I frequently find myself in spots like this was when we are 300xbb+ in that case my play is so tight it's normally not an issue.

[THDOCTA2]

I think with these stack sizes, 1.5 PSB and 1 PSB, I really don't like continuing with a big bluff here regardless of flop texture (unless the flop comes 654 in which case its no longer a bluff obv).

I like this resteal spot where the opener is loose and you're raising about a quarter of the middle guys stack, but its such a nasty spot when you get called that I think I give up a good amount of the time. Maybe too weak - v interested in what others think about this.

[Kala1928]

Its spewy everytime you aren't sure if they both are going to fold. And since the button is a pf calling station dont ever 3bet junk against him. Just don't do it unless you are very deep (Like AZK mentioned) or if you are quite certain your image and the tendencies of the players in the pot will allow you to pull it off == you will win the pot preflop. Its especially spewy live.

[VENGEANCE]

100 bbs deep you have to have a REALLY really tight image live to make this profitable, like everyone at the table needs to be commenting on how tight you are and you have to be against two decent players(which is so rare live) that will fold hands pf. To make this move pf 100 bbs deep you must have a ton of fold equity such that when you do get called you can afford to give up on most flops because people won't be folding on the flop having called for that much of their stack. When I do make this play and get called I basically give up any flop that isn't good for me, ie 456+, relying on my pf equity to make the play profitable.

[Hobb]

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely if ever find myself in this spot when my opponents have less than 100xbb. I frequently find myself in spots like this was when we are 300xbb+ in that case my play is so tight it's normally not an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so here's my question. Say the scenario played out the way it did, except effective stacks are 6k. Then you're playing a 1k pot to the flop with 5k behind you. Won't you have a much harder time winning the pot? Even if only one of the villains (H/J or Button) calls, you're going OOP to the flop with a big pot and a crappy hand. Am I right? In what way can you exploit this situation?

On the other hand, with only 1500 or so behind you, you're playing a 1k pot and basically can c/f or overbet shove. furthermore, having smaller stacks behind narrows the villains' calling ranges, too, right? (no small pp, suited conns)

Basically, is rr out of the blinds big and then shoving a PSB or 1.5PSB +EV? I don't understand why rr with 63cc out of the blinds with 300BB behind us is more +EV than with 100BB behind us. In position maybe... but I thought rr OOP you would rather have a simpler flop decision.

[Hobb]

P.S. I'm going to be tryin rr out of the blinds w/different stack sizes and against diff type players (nits, lagtards, etc) a bunch today.. so if u see anyone stackin off at 10/20 with 75cc on a Q-8-7 board and instacalled by 88... well, you know that's me! lol

[Kala1928]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I rarely if ever find myself in this spot when my opponents have less than 100xbb. I frequently find myself in spots like this was when we are 300xbb+ in that case my play is so tight it's normally not an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so here's my question. Say the scenario played out the way it did, except effective stacks are 6k. Then you're playing a 1k pot to the flop with 5k behind you. Won't you have a much harder time winning the pot? Even if only one of the villains (H/J or Button) calls, you're going OOP to the flop with a big pot and a crappy hand. Am I right? In what way can you exploit this situation?

On the other hand, with only 1500 or so behind you, you're playing a 1k pot and basically can c/f or overbet shove. furthermore, having smaller stacks behind narrows the villains' calling ranges, too, right? (no small pp, suited conns)

Basically, is rr out of the blinds big and then shoving a PSB or 1.5PSB +EV? I don't understand why rr with 63cc out of the blinds with 300BB behind us is more +EV than with 100BB behind us. In position maybe... but I thought rr OOP you would rather have a simpler flop decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

You win a lot bigger pot when the flop comes 662 or when the flop comes 459 and turn is a K and you get your opponent to fold JJ or whatever. More money behind leaves more room to maneuver instead of simple check or shove flop. Your villain would also be a lot more likely to call a flop shove on a 445 flop with 99 than he is to call a flop bet on a 445 flop with 99 with 5k more behind. Basically you do realize you are bluffing preflop and if you don't have a good idea if your opponents are going to fold IMMEDIATELY ON THE STREET YOU MAKE THE FIRST BLUFF(*) or not just dont bluff, like you wouldn't make a bluff on the flop or turn or river when you don't have any idea how your opponent is going to react.

(*) sure you can sometimes make a really fancy multi-street value bluff in which the key is just to get your opponent to fold on a later street when its likely that you either hit something or he missed and cant call. But its pretty thin to rr preflop with very little fold equity to try and then win the pot on the flop because flop changes equities so much compared to turn/river.