Following Instinct w/ Folds. Getting Advanced or Overzealous?

Zeldark · #1 07-10-2007, 07:58 AM

This is back to the "Is it pyschic or MUBS?" sort of discussion.

I used to spew a lot more than I do now. When I know I'm beat I slow down now. I have the experience to recognize when to slow down, but I believe I should be able to make laydowns. I believe saving Big Bets here and there will go a long way in the long run, but maybe I'm just getting overzealous? I have provided some examples of hands I thought should be folded but something inside me smelt something fishy and wanted to see the showdown anyways. Some of the hands are played better than others.

While logically evidence against my arguement for advanced folding, to throw off results oriented advice I have thrown some winning hands into the mix any number of them could be winners/losers.

Some of these may be more LDO than others. Not all of these are my finest hour, but the poorly played hands just add to throwing off results oriented advice. Will you pull the plug on any of these?

I'm especially interested in the advice of any and all veterans/professionals/grinders that worked their way up for this one.

Hand 1:

SB is Unknown but has a 4.5BB chipstack after the blind goes in.
Button is 20.87/8.25/4.16 after 412 hands.

Limit Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

River: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Hand 2:

Villain is 23.81/4.76/1.17 After 21 Hands

Limit Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Hand 3:

Villain is 28.57/21.43/2.1 after 70 hands

Limit Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP2 caps, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Hand 4:

UTG is 40/18.26/2.42 after 115 hands.
UTG+2 is 24.85/11.52/1.27 after 165 hands.

Limit Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Hand 5:

Limit Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Yes raise here is lol bad. I know [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Final Pot: 16 BB

calidris · #2 07-10-2007, 09:53 AM

Hand 1:
SB can just be pretty tired of playing his diminishing stack here and donkraising everything. I think I raise this flop to try and get it HU.

On the turn you pick up the nut OESD which gives you around 6 outs w the 2 remaining Q (meybe discount total to 5). Pot is big enough to call down.

Hand 2:
I think I c/f this turn. Looks like a Q with a K, J or A when he avoids capping. When the 2nd Q comes on the turn I feel it's time to admit defeat.

Hand 3:
I play it the same. He must know now that you beat TPTK but doesn't care. Looks like a set, or maybe, just maybe, AK.

Hand 4:
Huh? Just confusing with 3way cap PF and checked to you on this flop. I think I play it the same. No way i'm releasing my hand on this non scary board. Sure you might be up against AA or KK but not often enough to make folding an option

Hand 5:
As a variation you might think about checking this PF but I probably raise it up also since noone is showing any strength. Turn c/r smells AT, I do not raise that river. I probably call though.

On second thinking it's probably best to b/f turn here.

FineStyle · #3 07-10-2007, 01:00 PM

I'm not a veteran at all but post anyway.
Hand 1: Button could have anything, maybe I would raise the flop, but probably would play the same. River call jst because pot is large.
Hand 2: I would fold on the turn. Villain seems to be tight-passive.
Hand 3: I Play it the same.
Hand 4: Nothing suggests that you are beaten, although the actions of UTG would scare me.
Hand 5: I had almost the exact hand today. Lost to AK, but it was capped PF. SB showed no strength. I would just check/ call on the river.

Buzz-cp · #4 07-10-2007, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a veteran at all but post anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no title requirement to post here. In fact, new users are encouraged to respond to posts before posting hands themselves. Also titles / post count are not necessarily any indicator of good advice.

Buzz-cp · #5 07-10-2007, 01:23 PM

Zelda I think hand 2 is a pretty standard bet/fold. I realize it's tough to fold an overpair, but it's pretty clear we've been outdrawn here.

aK13 · #6 07-10-2007, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a veteran at all but post anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Also titles / post count are not necessarily any indicator of good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

<--
Epeen++

OrigamiSensei · #7 07-10-2007, 01:46 PM

Hand 1: I'm pretty sure I fold the turn against two overcards. Spending two more BBs on a probable 5-outer just doesn't seem all that wise. Besides, villain will only have 8BBs and remain shortstacked. Given that he probably got stupid and lucky with a 4.5BB stack it's worth giving this one up and working to stack him off in a later hand.

Hand 2: Looks fine. I don't like having to call down here but I pay this one off, if only to find out more about this guy's cold-calling range.

Hand 3: Although it feels a bit feeble I don't donk the turn here, I just call down.

Hand 4: I play it exactly the same while muttering imprecations under my breath.

Hand 5: The river raise is terrible as you well know. The rest of the hand is fine.

calidris · #8 07-10-2007, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5: The river raise is terrible as you well know. The rest of the hand is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB donking and 3-betting flop here, we should give him credit for an A? When he c/r the T turn do we really still think that we are good enough times or do we not surrender to AT?

OrigamiSensei · #9 07-10-2007, 03:19 PM

Cal, you cannot immediately assume he is on precisely AT or TT for the check-raise. I see people doing so many crazy things at the micros level that once villain c/r's the turn I'll call down expecting to lose 70-90% of the time. Between our thin draw and the possibility of villain overplaying his hand or bluffing we'll pull out the hand enough times to make calling the turn raise and check/calling the river thin but worthwhile (we'll be investing 2 more BB into an anticipated 12BB final pot). This is of course absent any strong reads. It also does not factor in implied tilt odds if we suck out and upset the villain or the value of learning more about his post-flop playing style.

Black Wings · #10 07-10-2007, 03:24 PM

hand 1's prefect

hand 2, check turn, call down.

hand 3, check raise the turn and call down.

hand 4, prefect

hand 5, you get it